When is a request evil in nature?

[malachite]

In regarding summoning whatever entity, I was wondering what might be seen as an evil request, other than murder, theft, wound others, curse others, etc.

Let me shed some light with an example;
We all need money, we all know we need a certain amount of money to pay our houserent, groceries, health insurance and taxes. Regarding clothing, we need to buy them, and thus we need the money. But we don't necessarily need to buy the most expensive. As with other stuff, like video games etc, we don't need to buy them too a a priority.

Example 2; Or how about taking revenge on someone who stole money from me. How to turn that into a request that is not evil in nature? Just requesting the person to return what he took away and forgive him?

Offcourse I know that winning the lotery can be evil in nature, which I don't because I'm afraid i'll loose all my friends, and my new friends only like for my money.

[Ramscha]

In regarding summoning whatever entity, I was wondering what might be seen as an evil request, other than murder, theft, wound others, curse others, etc.

Let me shed some light with an example;
We all need money, we all know we need a certain amount of money to pay our houserent, groceries, health insurance and taxes. Regarding clothing, we need to buy them, and thus we need the money. But we don't necessarily need to buy the most expensive. As with other stuff, like video games etc, we don't need to buy them too a a priority.

Example 2; Or how about taking revenge on someone who stole money from me. How to turn that into a request that is not evil in nature? Just requesting the person to return what he took away and forgive him?

Offcourse I know that winning the lotery can be evil in nature, which I don't because I'm afraid i'll loose all my friends, and my new friends only like for my money.

Evil and good can only be defined by the one who commits the act. If you take the norms from other groups, that is fine, but don't expect an absolutly right answer for this.

[Frumens]

In regarding summoning whatever entity, I was wondering what might be seen as an evil request, other than murder, theft, wound others, curse others, etc.

Let me shed some light with an example;
We all need money, we all know we need a certain amount of money to pay our houserent, groceries, health insurance and taxes. Regarding clothing, we need to buy them, and thus we need the money. But we don't necessarily need to buy the most expensive. As with other stuff, like video games etc, we don't need to buy them too a a priority.

Example 2; Or how about taking revenge on someone who stole money from me. How to turn that into a request that is not evil in nature? Just requesting the person to return what he took away and forgive him?

Offcourse I know that winning the lotery can be evil in nature, which I don't because I'm afraid i'll loose all my friends, and my new friends only like for my money.

Imagine if you did any of these deeds without magic. Would you feel good, bad, or neutral about them? I don't think doing them with magic makes them any more or less moral.

The quickest way to know if something is wrong or right is to listen to your conscience. You don't have to wait for your conscience to post in a thread.

[malachite]

Well in regarding the earning money thing:
Evil? No. I wouldn't say it would be evil to earn an amount of money which fits my eductaion level.
Evil? Yes. Lets say I tried to use magic to earn as much as a surgeon while my eductaion level is much lowe3r, i would consider that to be evil, because all the people around me of the same education level would earn much less.

Regarding the money theft
Evil? No. Trying to steal something of the same value back, or the +/- equal amount of money.
Evil? Yes. Do what he did, and then repat it over and over again, stealing much more money than he did originally and maybe become worse than him. Or beat 'em up into the hospital.

Regarding the lotery thing; Joining wouldn't be evil, I think. It's about what to do with the money, if won. Keeping it all to myself and start a life of pure luxury while family and friends, and others are suffering from whatever would be evil.

Thanks for the help.

[Desecrated]

Only thing I recognize as white magic is religion. When you ask the gods for help. You might want a priest to help communicate with the god/gods but his roll is just that. Priests are white magician.

Real magic is desire and will. Desire and will is always selfish.
Using energy to heal someone else is only going to work if I want to heal. It is all the same.
Using energy to curse someone else, is only going to work if I want too.

Most people who call themselves white magicians are usually gray magicians who hide themself from their own power, afraid of being what they can become.
That is why their magic is so weak and they need tools, herbs, candles, the right phase of the moon and everything else that isn't them.

Fuck the gods! They are nothing but overrated ghosts with a PR trail of money hungry priests singing praise to lure in the weak and the simpleminded.

[autodydact]

Well in regarding the earning money thing:
Evil? No. I wouldn't say it would be evil to earn an amount of money which fits my eductaion level.
Evil? Yes. Lets say I tried to use magic to earn as much as a surgeon while my eductaion level is much lowe3r, i would consider that to be evil, because all the people around me of the same education level would earn less

How do you define your education level? Since when has education level been that much of an influence on pay? For example, I have a relative who never did any formal education past the age of 16. He has gainful employment with a banking firm and lives an extremely comfortable lifestyle. Now, in terms of book learning, iq, etc. I would outstrip him without a doubt and I am formally educated to a much higher level than he. I have no doubt though that once I have achieved the level of qualification I desire, it will still take several years for me to be earning as much as he is without any higher education, if indeed I ever earn as much! That doesn't make my relative evil. He has simply been fortunate and made good decisions and excelled in his career.

Secondly, does the ability to use magick to improve one's financial situation not, in itself, demonstrate that you are of an education level high enough to be worthy of it? It's not as if snapping your fingers and saying a few words in Latin is going to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams...

[Sypheara]

In my experience, magick is truly beyond good and evil. Good and evil are, as people say, relative to a group goal and is usually within a particular groups interest.

However, this does not extend to where these concepts come from, which is the principles of creation and destruction. Creative forces tend to be seen as good, but lead to a restricting stagnation. Destructive forces are usually seen as evil, but they break stagnation. The downside is they do so in a way that is destructive, and can cause systems to entirely break apart. These elements usually attract like for like, and most systems are in a state of see sawing balance of these two influences.

Using your own example: ' how about taking revenge on someone who stole money from me. How to turn that into a request that is not evil in nature? Just requesting the person to return what he took away and forgive him?'

This is simply magickally correcting a scenario, and defending yourself. This should not be a request, but a forcible command to ensure your money is returned to you, its rightful owner. He instigated a destabilising and destructive act against you, and therefore is also responsible for the negative effects it will bring with it, namely bringing him into a conflict of will with you as like attracts like. In this case two negatives do lead to a positive, and re-establish the order.

Very few entities practice a turn the other cheek mentality that I work with, and none of them would see this as a questionable act, and have the mentality that is is up to the magickian to deal with the consequences of his actions as a rational, individual being responsible for creating the kind of world he wishes to live in through application of the will.

Other entities that i havnt worked with might have a difference of opinion as they all have their own agenda. Some are highly constructive, others highly destructive to their own ends. For example, their is a guardian spirit of graveyards that takes the place of commander of the dark dead, the hollows and husks hat cause insanity, disease, pain and death. It is known by many different names in differing traditions. This entity obviously is destructive in nature, but it acts a cleaner, removing other parasites from both the astral and material sphere so it serves its own cause and we cant label it evil because it can be a very antinomian force that can harm humans. The japanese concept of the Yōkai is most applicable - we cant always apply our own flexible concepts of morality, just try to understand them from a level of forces and balances and make use of that where we can.

Felt as if ive rambled here, hopefully that sheds my thoughts on the matter and helps in some regard

[manofsands]

Felt as if ive rambled here, hopefully that sheds my thoughts on the matter and helps in some regard

Not at all. It was a very interesting post.


As for the original question...

In regarding summoning whatever entity, I was wondering what might be seen as an evil request,

I'm going to sidestep the question a little. I think you've already gotten many great answers. Not even knocking you asked, that's what the forum is for, but you can also take this as an opportunity for... self calibration. If you have a question like this, it is an important question. If you are stirred to ask about it in the forum, you are conflicted about it. This is a good time to meditate on the question. Let it set with you. What does it feel like. If something is uncomfortable about it, explore (mentally) why. You have all the answers you need inside of you. And they aren't even always right, but they are right for you at that time. This also builds your will. Sometimes we ask opinions so we get the answer we want to hear.

I don't mean to come off as belittling or lecturing.

[manonthepath]

Only thing I recognize as white magic is religion. When you ask the gods for help. You might want a priest to help communicate with the god/gods but his roll is just that. Priests are white magician.

Real magic is desire and will. Desire and will is always selfish.
Using energy to heal someone else is only going to work if I want to heal. It is all the same.
Using energy to curse someone else, is only going to work if I want too.

Most people who call themselves white magicians are usually gray magicians who hide themself from their own power, afraid of being what they can become.
That is why their magic is so weak and they need tools, herbs, candles, the right phase of the moon and everything else that isn't them.

Fuck the gods! They are nothing but overrated ghosts with a PR trail of money hungry priests singing praise to lure in the weak and the simpleminded.

Absolute certainty is the hallmark of a small mind. It must be a comfort to you to have all the answers, huh? You know, to understand the nature of the all the Gods in entirety, and to be able to see into the minds and hearts of all practitioners. I'm particularly envious of your ability to have such a complete and profound understanding of the nature of desire, will and selfishness, while expressing your points with such poise, dignity and intelligence that one is moved to stupification by your well considered remarks. Yes, you seem to be quite a remarkable individual.

[Nahemah]

Absolute certainty is the hallmark of a small mind. It must be a comfort to you to have all the answers, huh? You know, to understand the nature of the all the Gods in entirety, and to be able to see into the minds and hearts of all practitioners. I'm particularly envious of your ability to have such a complete and profound understanding of the nature of desire, will and selfishness, while expressing your points with such poise, dignity and intelligence that one is moved to stupification by your well considered remarks. Yes, you seem to be quite a remarkable individual.

Huh?

I also read Desecrated's post but I don't see where you got the certainty thing from and your response mostly looks like a flame attempt from where I'm sitting.

Please explain.

[Sypheara]

I can see where manonthepath is coming from. Desecrateds post came across a bit.. strong and self assured, which is probably why it elicited a similar, strong response and reply.

Also I'm glad my post was of some help manofsands, getting anything typed up whilst i'm at work is difficult.

Back on topc, I think Desecrateds writing off of certain aspects of magickal practice is a pretty large error although he does have some valid points nestled in there imho.

Only thing I recognize as white magic is religion. When you ask the gods for help. You might want a priest to help communicate with the god/gods but his roll is just that. Priests are white magician.

Real magic is desire and will. Desire and will is always selfish.
Using energy to heal someone else is only going to work if I want to heal. It is all the same.
Using energy to curse someone else, is only going to work if I want too.

This has a degree of truth. All magick arises from intent, which arises from a combination of both will and desire. I would argue the moral point that both will and desire is not always a selfish one, as there are many examples which book the existential trend and arguement that occur on a daily basis. As creatures whose survival has benefit from highly knit group dynamics, I do believe that it is possible to act unselfishly to benefit the goals of a larger group. I see the arguement that everything is inherently selfish akin to the solipsistic arguement, ie it can work as a theory when you reduce it down to a very, very base level, but it does not really describe all the patterns that are seen in the real.

Also saying that white magic is religion is not correct when you investigate it further. As for one example to the contrary, Quimbanda, has a very high component of petition Exus for help. It is certainly not white magick, and includes heavy blood work and invocation/evocation work. It is technically classed as a religion, and is practiced as a full system. Religion is always a very easy target, considering the number of nutjobs that populate its ranks, but only a very reactionary individual would generalise all religions and their practices in a black and white manner and/or declare them ineffective just because they are believed in by larger groups.

Most people who call themselves white magicians are usually gray magicians who hide themself from their own power, afraid of being what they can become.
That is why their magic is so weak and they need tools, herbs, candles, the right phase of the moon and everything else that isn't them.

This has an element of truth in it as well. I have never understood the 'im a white mage' or 'black' mage mentality. Being either/or demonstrates that the individual is incapable of standing at the crossroads, and directing the polarities in accordance with their own will and purpose. Only when both axis are utilized, balanced and understood do we really move forward. Of course all of us have our preferences, and lean more heavily on one than the other depending on our philosophical leanings, but to discount a whole area of study on principle seems very naive.

In addition, it must also be said that tools, herbs, candles, the right phase of the moon etc has, for centuries, been an important part of magickal practice in a documented fashion. Once could argue it even goes back to shamanistic belief. Being able to work with plant spirits and other allies just makes the magickians own power stronger, one who relies solely on the will imho is one again cutting off his own nose to spite his own face. Why not use and direct your maximum will through powerful tools, utilising plant allies and baneful herbs, in the dark moon when she is in Saturn? All of these elements will just ENHANCE something that is already powerful for maximum effect. This can also be boosted to even higher levels when one acts under partial possession and the spirits of sphere one is working in infuses the blood with its spirit also, enhancing the magickians own potency.

One would not go to battle alone surely, when one can bring 10,000 allies to assist you to overwhelm the enemy. Nothing in half measures.

Fuck the gods! They are nothing but overrated ghosts with a PR trail of money hungry priests singing praise to lure in the weak and the simpleminded.

This demonstrates unfortunately that you have not yet have the pleasure of meeting one of these beings as they truly are. They are vastly, vastly stronger than any human being could possibly obtain, with their ethereal bodies being the very matrix our universe is built over. To suggest that a singular, human soul without undergoing a vast degree of soul evolution could compete with one of these beings is the height of human arrogance. Human arrogance and hubris is one of the main problems with modern man, he no longer sees himself as a part of anything, but above all. How humbling it must feel when he is swept away by waves taller than buildings, his cities reduced to rubble by earthquakes, and his atmosphere poisoned by the lifeblood of the earth erupting from the depths.

Again, all my own opinion, but its things that i feel strongly about.

[manonthepath]

Absolute certainty is the hallmark of a small mind. It must be a comfort to you to have all the answers, huh? You know, to understand the nature of the all the Gods in entirety, and to be able to see into the minds and hearts of all practitioners. I'm particularly envious of your ability to have such a complete and profound understanding of the nature of desire, will and selfishness, while expressing your points with such poise, dignity and intelligence that one is moved to stupification by your well considered remarks. Yes, you seem to be quite a remarkable individual.

Huh?

I also read Desecrated's post but I don't see where you got the certainty thing from and your response mostly looks like a flame attempt from where I'm sitting.

Please explain.

I was using sarcasm to express my contempt for the arrogance and finality in Desecrated's statements. I found his words to leave little room or tolerance for discussion and "Certainty" seemed quite implicit throughout the post. "flame Attempts" are not in my nature as they do nothing to further any discussion. The goal of my post was to provide a mirror through which Desecrated might see how his words were perceived and to provide him/her with an opportunity to clarify and explain the rationale behind the positions in question.

[lupenthewolf]

As was once said in a very good film series "only sith deal in absolutes."

Absolutes can have a stabilizing effect within one's own view of the world, imposing order for one's self where others might see chaos, but they can be detrimental when they are imposed onto others. It is up to each of us to define our own vision of reality and while sharing your own opinions isn't bad, and in fact I encourage it, using absolute terms when doing so can lead to confusion and conflict. While I found Desecrated's post humorous he could have avoided the blowback by using better wording.

On topic, I agree with Sypheara in that magick is beyond the human concepts of good and evil. In my personal experience it is often simply a matter balance where magick is concerned, positive and negative in balance. You can help the world find balance through magick, but often enough it will find it's own way given enough time.