Modern/non-theistic Satanism that isn't Laveyan based?

[xxxidd]

Is it possible to be a non-theistic Satanist with your own beliefs without considering yourself Laveyan? And having your own way of practicing magick such as chaos magick, with no satanic rituals, etc.?

[Ramscha]

Sure. Just do it. There is more to satanism then just LaVey (I wished this guy would have never been born...).

[manofsands]

Ya,... what the guy with the tie said.

[Desecrated]

Non-theistic luciferian would probably be the best place to start.

[NLDSatanist666]

Yes. In fact, many Satanists and Luciferians operate in this way. It's quite simple. Instead of using LeVay's tradition, invent your own.

[NLDSatanist666]

Is it possible to be a non-theistic Satanist with your own beliefs without considering yourself Laveyan? And having your own way of practicing magick such as chaos magick, with no satanic rituals, etc.?

Yes. You don't need ritual to be a non-theistic Satanist as for most non-theistic Satanists, Satanism is a philosophy first and foremost. Ritual is just an extra part that it seems to me, LeVay put into The Satanic Bible to make the philosophy more fun.

If I may recommend a resource, check out https://satanicviews.wordpress.com/, a blog by an Independent, Non-theistic Satanism. It's a mix of the author's views and information about Independent Satanism. It's not the best resource for information on practicing Satanism (at least in my opinion), but it's there.

[Mourn]

You gotta like the Jihadists over the various self-proclaimed "Satanists", that's for sure. Well, at least I would if the muslims weren't that ugly.

[Faustus]

Is it possible to be a non-theistic Satanist with your own beliefs without considering yourself Laveyan? And having your own way of practicing magick such as chaos magick, with no satanic rituals, etc.?

The Satanic Temple is a non-theistic variety of Satanism.

http://thesatanictemple.com/

However, they do not believe in magick.

Best of luck in finding a belief system that meets your needs!

[Mourn]

Is it possible to be a non-theistic Satanist with your own beliefs without considering yourself Laveyan? And having your own way of practicing magick such as chaos magick, with no satanic rituals, etc.?

The Satanic Temple is a non-theistic variety of Satanism.

http://thesatanictemple.com/

However, they do not believe in magick.

Best of luck in finding a belief system that meets your needs!

Labels again. What the fuck makes them Satanic if they don't even believe in magic? Are we serious around here? This stupidity of the modern world can drive you nuts. Why is it so difficult to understand that if you don't believe in Satan you are not a Satanist? Do you guys have a problem reading simple words?

[Faustus]

Labels again. What the fuck makes them Satanic if they don't even believe in magic? Are we serious around here? This stupidity of the modern world can drive you nuts. Why is it so difficult to understand that if you don't believe in Satan you are not a Satanist? Do you guys have a problem reading simple words?

I would tend to agree with you, gravitating towards theistic Satanism myself. And there is no reason that it cannot be DIY. For myself, I found that the Satanism which felt like it was custom-made for me was the late Herb Sloane's Ophitic Gnostic Cultus Sathanas (of Toledo, Ohio) since Gnosticism (the records whereof I have studied for decades) exactly described for me my earliest childhood spiritual experience (what Gnostics refer[red] to as "The Call"]. But Herb's Our Lady of Endor Coven did not survive his death, leaving me to reconstruct it from scratch. I began with a recommendation from Herb (which I found in an interview of Herb by the late Leo Martello) to read Hans Jonas' "The Gnostic Religion". From there I studied the doctrines of the Gnostics but especially concentrating on the Ophite sects in the writings of the Church Fathers and complimented that with the Nag Hammadi findings and other Gnostic works, all too few of which have managed to survive to the current day.

But even if I am a theistic Satanist, and do believe in magick, just because theistic Satanism in general and Ophitic Gnostic Satanism in particular is right for me does not mean it is necessarily right for everyone else. I only mentioned The Satanic Temple because I was trying to help xxxidd, who is looking for a non-theistic variety of Satanism. I do not see why it is necessary to imply that those in this thread trying to help xxxidd are therefore stupid and/or necessarily endorse the views of The Satanic Temple. I am certain that the people who have responded positively to xxxidd come from all traditions of Satanism, both theistic and atheistic. Some of them may even come from no tradition of Satanism. Speaking strictly for myself, all I was doing was trying to steer xxxidd in the direction that xxxidd was looking for. It's what I would try to do for anybody. Peace.

[Mourn]

Labels again. What the fuck makes them Satanic if they don't even believe in magic? Are we serious around here? This stupidity of the modern world can drive you nuts. Why is it so difficult to understand that if you don't believe in Satan you are not a Satanist? Do you guys have a problem reading simple words?

I would tend to agree with you, gravitating towards theistic Satanism myself. And there is no reason that it cannot be DIY. For myself, I found that the Satanism which felt like it was custom-made for me was the late Herb Sloane's Ophitic Gnostic Cultus Sathanas (of Toledo, Ohio) since Gnosticism (the records whereof I have studied for decades) exactly described for me my earliest childhood spiritual experience (what Gnostics refer[red] to as "The Call"]. But Herb's Our Lady of Endor Coven did not survive his death, leaving me to reconstruct it from scratch. I began with a recommendation from Herb (which I found in an interview of Herb by the late Leo Martello) to read Hans Jonas' "The Gnostic Religion". From there I studied the doctrines of the Gnostics but especially concentrating on the Ophite sects in the writings of the Church Fathers and complimented that with the Nag Hammadi findings and other Gnostic works, all too few of which have managed to survive to the current day.

But even if I am a theistic Satanist, and do believe in magick, just because theistic Satanism in general and Ophitic Gnostic Satanism in particular is right for me does not mean it is necessarily right for everyone else. I only mentioned The Satanic Temple because I was trying to help xxxidd, who is looking for a non-theistic variety of Satanism. I do not see why it is necessary to imply that those in this thread trying to help xxxidd are therefore stupid and/or necessarily endorse the views of The Satanic Temple. I am certain that the people who have responded positively to xxxidd come from all traditions of Satanism, both theistic and atheistic. Some of them may even come from no tradition of Satanism. Speaking strictly for myself, all I was doing was trying to steer xxxidd in the direction that xxxidd was looking for. It's what I would try to do for anybody. Peace.

Gnostic Satanism is absolutely acceptable. In fact, it's much more acceptable than pagan Satanism which is based on alleged visions. In fact, the only things that could be considered Satanism, in my opinion, are Gnostic Satanism, Masonic Satanism and Diabolism - Dark Christianity.

As for the reply on this topic, I believe that what the author is asking for is not Satanism.

Request: Looking for modern non-theistic Satanism that isn't LaVeyan.
Correct answer: Then you are looking for atheism called Satanism. Period.

I believe that It's unacceptable for theistic Satanists to indirectly affirm that LaVeanism (meaning, the branch of atheism started by Anton LaVey) and atheism are Satanic.

EDIT NOTES: This post has been edited to remove personal attacks, excessive profanity, and pointless conjecture. The author has been warned.

[Faustus]

First of all, I want to make it clear from the outset that I am posting this with the utmost respect for everyone participating in this thread, Mourn included. Now to the subject at hand. Again, I would tend to agree with you, Mourn. But I have friends who are atheists and I don't want to waste precious minutes of my life debating them because such debates are always unprofitable, always diffuse more heat than light, and always end in a stalemate. The credo of Satanism is hedonism, and every minute I spend in useless argument leading only to my own frustration and aggravation is taking away from time I could be devoting myself to my own pleasure, and instead of pleasure I would devoting it to making myself feel horrible. There is no way I am falling into that trap. Flame warriors just make each other feel worse.

Exception: nazi and white supremacist pricks who think they are Satanists, i.e., The Joy of Satan and all other nazi "Satanists" (not!) If I may be so bold as to revise the title and lyrics of the famous Dead Kennedys song, "Nazi Satanists Fuck Off!" The worst thing about the LaVeyans is their disingenuousness. The LaVeyans very dishonestly like to pretend that they are nothing but "the Libertarian Party at prayer", which they are to an extent, but their right-wing creed left them wide open to right-wing extremists, white supremacists, nazis, KKK and the whole lunatic fringe, all of whom the Church of Satan welcomed with open arms and never once disowned, and the Joy of Satan probably wouldn’t exist but for them. There is a clear lack of integrity here, and if nothing else a religion should have integrity.

But as far as xxxidd and his/her request goes: Is he/she a Satanist? Is he/she not a Satanist? Is non-theistic or atheistic Satanism, Satanism? Is non-theistic or atheistic Satanism, not Satanism? First, the simple fact is that whatever we think xxxidd is will not change his/her mind of what xxxidd thinks he/she is. If xxxidd believes himself/herself a Satanist then he/she will not change his/her mind because we disapprove. Second, if anyone wants to waste their time arguing with him/her or the LaVeyans or any other non-theistic/atheistic sects about whether or not they are Satanists, I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a stalemate. As David Byrne of Talking Heads sings, you're "on a road to nowhere". People automatically become the more intransigent the more their religious beliefs, in which they have placed all of their emotional investment, are attacked; and this in turn only makes the attackers more intransigent. So if xxxidd wants to believe that he/she is a Satanist, I couldn't care less, because my emotional investment is in my religion and in the pursuit of personal pleasure, and I simply have no time for that kind of aggravation. There is only one point to life: living it.

Religious atheism is nothing new nor is it an invention of Anton LaVey. Don’t forget that before there was LaVey’s Satanist atheism there was Christian atheism. In fact, Christian atheism was a school of thought all on its own and spawned a whole mass of literature (Paul van Buren, Thomas J J. Altizer, William Hamilton, etc.). The rationale of Christian atheists? The same as that of LaVey, more or less. The need for ritual despite the fact that God does not exist, following Jesus as a moral teacher, etc. Since religious atheism is in no way intrinsic to Satanism, any attempt to purge the planet of religious atheists is doomed only to failure. And I for one am not going to waste my time on that. I have a life to live.

As for your belief that it is unacceptable for theistic Satanists to indirectly affirm that LaVeyanism and atheism are Satanic, well, it is necessary to compare it to Christian atheism. Christian fundamentalists do not, of course, believe that Christian atheism is Christian—but that's not because they're Christian, but because they're fundamentalist. But if you look at Christian atheism objectively, it keeps the trappings (rituals) and the moral teaching while vetoing the theology. Those trappings and that moral teaching are Christian no matter how you look at it. An atheist saying the Lord's Prayer is still saying the Lord's Prayer even if he/she does not believe in it. The same could be said for LaVeyan and other non-theistic Satanisms. The difference between them is that Christian atheism is a desperate and pathetic attempt to make the Church relevant to the current generation when, in fact, the Church is in the last stages of terminal illness (fundamentalism is only one of the symptoms; death throes can be very violent). LaVey, on the other hand, wanted simultaneously occultist credibility and rational credibility, and hoped to pull in converts from both traditions: no Satan but we believe in magick. Lavey’s is a case of cynical and deliberately manipulative marketing.

And there are some historical connections between atheism and Satanism. The term "Satanist" in English was originally applied to atheists. "Reason," wrote Martin Luther, "is Satan's whore." And when atheists bring up the Problem of Evil to discredit Christianity, they use many of the same arguments theistic Satanists use to discredit the Christian god (i.e., if the Christian god is omnipotent and good, how can he allow suffering and evil in the world, etc.) Read any of what is termed the "higher criticism" of the Bible and you'll see what I mean: all those passages where Yahweh is exposed as a moral monster are highlighted, like the ones where he tells the Israelites to slaughter all the males of the peoples they conquer, right down to the new born babies and male animals. Satanists point our the same passages, make the very same arguments, often in the very same words. This is precisely why Christian fundamentalists think atheism is Satanic. The very first thing that modern Catholic and Christian fundamentalist critics of Gnosticism point out is that the Gnostics use the same arguments as atheists. They also point to the fact that the word "science" in Latin means "knowledge", and is the word used to translate the Greek word "Gnosis". They point out that the Church fathers said that Gnosticism was "science falsely so-called" and that the present-day physical sciences, rationalism, Darwinism, etc., (inasmuch as they discredit Christian belief) are "science falsely so-called". They see a connection and are positively horrified by it. In fact atheist works are really good source books in which to find ammunition against Christianity because atheists point out the contradictions and inconsistencies in Christianity and its god in virtually the same terms as the Gnostics did. The Gnostics, too, exposed Yahweh as a moral monster.

Finally, the word "Satanic" is an adjective often used metaphorically. How can anyone possibly prevent that? Christianity is a much bigger threat to Satanism than atheism will ever be. At least atheists believe in free thought. Christians believe in George Orwell, and in Oceania no one is allowed to think except for Big Brother. I for one am not a fundamentalist Satanist, because I regard fundamentalism as one of the many vile attributes of Christianity, and I want nothing whatsoever to do with anything that is Christian. I don't worship Christ; I worship Satan, the anti-fundamentalist. And I am a Gnostic Satanist. Gnosticism is based on direct religious experience, not on the inerrancy or infallibility of texts and teachings. Look at the Nag Hammadi Gnostic library: no two texts are exactly alike, no infallibility of texts implied or even possible, almost as many Gnostic sects as there were individual Gnostics. There is no way of reconciling them because each text is based on each author’s own individual experience of Gnosis.

And for the record, I never indirectly affirmed that LaVeyism or atheism was Satanic in my initial response to xxxidd, or at the very least that was not my intention at the time. (Now I am attempting a more thoughtful reply.) I simply directed xxxidd to The Satanic Temple (the name of the organisation) without commenting on its Satanic-ness or lack of Satanic-ness because he/she was in the market for something in that line. If xxxidd had wanted Crowley and asked about Crowley, I would have referred him/her to his/her local chapter of the O.T.O., even though I hate Crowley and the O.T.O. and reject Liber AL vel Legis [The Book of the Law]. If xxxidd had asked for directions to a store where he/she could buy a quart of milk, I would have given him/her some suggestions. I never could have dreamed that such a simple referral could result in such unmitigated hostility.

If I were to take seriously your belief that it is unacceptable for theistic Satanists to indirectly affirm that LaVeyanism and atheism are Satanic and then apply that principle to my own life, then I would have to disown all of my friends who follow LaVey or who are non-theistic Satanists (or if you prefer, pseudo-Satanists); either that, or I would constantly be arguing and/or engaging in flame wars with them which would only make my life and theirs a misery, and there's no hedonism in misery. People would just walk away from the argument with precisely the same views that they walked in with—unchanged, and with pent-up rage and frustration the only reward for their trouble. So what would the point be? (I've always hated doing things that had no point.) Like the old saying goes, you can catch more rabbits with a carrot than you can with a stick. And I find heresy-hunting much more suited to Church Inquisitors than to Satanists. Don't forget that it was THEY who burnt US at the stake along with atheists. With Satanists facing so many powerful enemies from without it does not in the least advance our cause for Satanists (or "those who call themselves Satanists, whether they are or not") to be at each other's throats. In military strategy, that kind of thing only serves the enemy. Is there no room for honestly and sincerely (and without any malice implied or intended) agreeing to disagree? No room for civil debate free of abuse and rancour? If not, then that's the end of this thread for me: no more posts. Peace! Ad majorem Satanae gloriam!

If I were to take seriously your belief that it is unacceptable for theistic Satanists to indirectly affirm that LaVeyanism and atheism are Satanic and then apply that principle to my own life, then I would have to disown all of my friends who follow LaVey or who are non-theistic Satanists (or if you prefer, pseudo-Satanists); either that, or I would constantly be arguing and/or engaging in flame wars with them which would only make my life and theirs a misery, and there’s no hedonism in misery. People would just walk away from the argument with precisely the same views that they walked in with—unchanged, and with pent-up rage and frustration the only reward for their trouble. So what would the point be? (I’ve always hated doing things that had no point.) Like the old saying goes, you can catch more rabbits with a carrot than you can with a stick. And I find heresy-hunting much more suited to Church Inquisitors than to Satanists. Don’t forget that it was THEY who burnt US at the stake along with atheists. With Satanists facing so many powerful enemies from without it does not in the least advance our cause for Satanists (or "those who call themselves Satanists, whether they are or not") to be at each other’s throats. In military strategy, that kind of thing only serves the enemy. Is there no room for honestly and sincerely (and without any malice implied or intended) agreeing to disagree? No room for civil debate free of abuse and rancour? If not, then that's the end of this thread for me: no more posts. Peace! Ad majorem Satanae gloriam!

[Mourn]

The moderator who edited my post is a serious asshole. Yeah, keep warning, faggot. No matter how many times you'll warn me or present obvious truths as beliefs, Satanism is still Satanism and not atheism. If Satanism is not Satanic then it's not Satanism.

Labels again. What the fuck makes them Satanic if they don't even believe in magic? Are we serious around here? This stupidity of the modern world can drive you nuts. Why is it so difficult to understand that if you don't believe in Satan you are not a Satanist? Do you guys have a problem reading simple words?

I would tend to agree with you, gravitating towards theistic Satanism myself. And there is no reason that it cannot be DIY. For myself, I found that the Satanism which felt like it was custom-made for me was the late Herb Sloane's Ophitic Gnostic Cultus Sathanas (of Toledo, Ohio) since Gnosticism (the records whereof I have studied for decades) exactly described for me my earliest childhood spiritual experience (what Gnostics refer[red] to as "The Call"]. But Herb's Our Lady of Endor Coven did not survive his death, leaving me to reconstruct it from scratch. I began with a recommendation from Herb (which I found in an interview of Herb by the late Leo Martello) to read Hans Jonas' "The Gnostic Religion". From there I studied the doctrines of the Gnostics but especially concentrating on the Ophite sects in the writings of the Church Fathers and complimented that with the Nag Hammadi findings and other Gnostic works, all too few of which have managed to survive to the current day.

But even if I am a theistic Satanist, and do believe in magick, just because theistic Satanism in general and Ophitic Gnostic Satanism in particular is right for me does not mean it is necessarily right for everyone else. I only mentioned The Satanic Temple because I was trying to help xxxidd, who is looking for a non-theistic variety of Satanism. I do not see why it is necessary to imply that those in this thread trying to help xxxidd are therefore stupid and/or necessarily endorse the views of The Satanic Temple. I am certain that the people who have responded positively to xxxidd come from all traditions of Satanism, both theistic and atheistic. Some of them may even come from no tradition of Satanism. Speaking strictly for myself, all I was doing was trying to steer xxxidd in the direction that xxxidd was looking for. It's what I would try to do for anybody. Peace.

Gnostic Satanism is absolutely acceptable. In fact, it's much more acceptable than pagan Satanism which is based on alleged visions. In fact, the only things that could be considered Satanism, according to the Lord, Who will play around with the moderator's fucking genes, are Gnostic Satanism, Masonic Satanism and Diabolism - Dark Christianity.

As for the reply on this topic, what the author is asking for is not Satanism and the moderator's mother gets fucked in a sewer. Both of them facts, not beliefs.

Request: Looking for modern non-theistic Satanism that isn't LaVeyan.
Correct answer: Then you are looking for atheism called Satanism. Period.

I believe that It's unacceptable for faggots to edit posts. Theistic Satanists shouldn't indirectly affirm that LaVeanism (meaning, the branch of atheism started by the asshole with the long ears and the ridiculous carnival Devil costumes - meaning LaVey) and atheism are Satanic.

EDIT NOTES: This post has been edited because the moderator is an atheist "you are what you say" cocksucker.

Faustus, you understand that according to your stupid logic everything can be called "Satanism", right?

First of all, I want to make it clear from the outset that I am posting this with the utmost respect for everyone participating in this thread, Mourn included. Now to the subject at hand. Again, I would tend to agree with you, Mourn. But I have friends who are atheists and I don't want to waste precious minutes of my life debating them because such debates are always unprofitable, always diffuse more heat than light, and always end in a stalemate. The credo of Satanism is hedonism, and every minute I spend in useless argument leading only to my own frustration and aggravation is taking away from time I could be devoting myself to my own pleasure, and instead of pleasure I would devoting it to making myself feel horrible. There is no way I am falling into that trap. Flame warriors just make each other feel worse.

Really? So I'm not a Satanist because I hate sexual immorality. Nice claim. Hedonism is hedonism. Atheism is atheism. Satanism is Satanism. Period. And I'm not speaking about your stupid tolerance towards infidels. I'm merely pointing out the fact that if you call them Satanists then you confirm they are Satanists, thus you believe Satanism is atheism too. So you are not a Satanist either.

Exception: nazi and white supremacist pricks who think they are Satanists, i.e., The Joy of Satan and all other nazi "Satanists" (not!) If I may be so bold as to revise the title and lyrics of the famous Dead Kennedys song, "Nazi Satanists Fuck Off!" The worst thing about the LaVeyans is their disingenuousness. The LaVeyans very dishonestly like to pretend that they are nothing but "the Libertarian Party at prayer", which they are to an extent, but their right-wing creed left them wide open to right-wing extremists, white supremacists, nazis, KKK and the whole lunatic fringe, all of whom the Church of Satan welcomed with open arms and never once disowned, and the Joy of Satan probably wouldn’t exist but for them. There is a clear lack of integrity here, and if nothing else a religion should have integrity.

WTF? So, worshiping Satan, practicing witchcraft, and believing your race is better than the others is not Satanic (Faith + Deeds + Egoism), while getting humiliatingly fucked, not practicing witchcraft, and not worshiping Satan is (No faith + No deeds + Passivity)?

Nazism is not Satanic because it actually deifies race instead of Satan. Plus there is no reason for it not to be called "paganism" instead. Additionally, it actually replaces religion with politics. But white supremacy alone could be Satanic if it was used properly, meaning, as an ideology which has no real connection with religion.

Now, when it comes to J.o.S. we are not speaking about nazis, Satanists or even paganists. We are speaking about worshiping aliens, considering different gods to be the same deities without any reason whatsoever, using names and titles from several religions and especially Christianity without even taking the time to read the texts these names were taken from, and allegedly believing in white supremacy because thus said an old non-white Indian whore who was fucked when she was eleven years old for the first time and claims to receive antisemitic and idiotic messages by Satan in an absolutely human and ridiculous way.

But as far as xxxidd and his/her request goes: Is he/she a Satanist? Is he/she not a Satanist? Is non-theistic or atheistic Satanism, Satanism? Is non-theistic or atheistic Satanism, not Satanism? First, the simple fact is that whatever we think xxxidd is will not change his/her mind of what xxxidd thinks he/she is. If xxxidd believes himself/herself a Satanist then he/she will not change his/her mind because we disapprove. Second, if anyone wants to waste their time arguing with him/her or the LaVeyans or any other non-theistic/atheistic sects about whether or not they are Satanists, I'm telling you that the best you can hope for is a stalemate. As David Byrne of Talking Heads sings, you're "on a road to nowhere". People automatically become the more intransigent the more their religious beliefs, in which they have placed all of their emotional investment, are attacked; and this in turn only makes the attackers more intransigent. So if xxxidd wants to believe that he/she is a Satanist, I couldn't care less, because my emotional investment is in my religion and in the pursuit of personal pleasure, and I simply have no time for that kind of aggravation. There is only one point to life: living it.

I told you that a theistic Satanist shouldn't affirm that atheism is Satanism by calling it thus. I didn't tell you that if you stop affirming it you will change an idiot's mind. WTF? So if a crippled whore claims she is Jesus you agree with her and start calling her "Christ" in front of everyone to avoid arguments which won't change her mind...?

As for your belief that it is unacceptable for theistic Satanists to indirectly affirm that LaVeyanism and atheism are Satanic, well, it is necessary to compare it to Christian atheism. Christian fundamentalists do not, of course, believe that Christian atheism is Christian—but that's not because they're Christian, but because they're fundamentalist. But if you look at Christian atheism objectively, it keeps the trappings (rituals) and the moral teaching while vetoing the theology. Those trappings and that moral teaching are Christian no matter how you look at it. An atheist saying the Lord's Prayer is still saying the Lord's Prayer even if he/she does not believe in it. The same could be said for LaVeyan and other non-theistic Satanisms. The difference between them is that Christian atheism is a desperate and pathetic attempt to make the Church relevant to the current generation when, in fact, the Church is in the last stages of terminal illness (fundamentalism is only one of the symptoms; death throes can be very violent). LaVey, on the other hand, wanted simultaneously occultist credibility and rational credibility, and hoped to pull in converts from both traditions: no Satan but we believe in magick. Lavey’s is a case of cynical and deliberately manipulative marketing.

Now, speaking about LaVey, we are talking about the ugly bastard with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder claiming to be the archpriest of whorish rituals with parody Devil horns who simply mixed Crowley's and Nietzsche's philosophies to create an organization based on the belief of the 60's "atheism = Satanism" which was actually started by Christians only because there weren't many atheists back then and thus atheism was considered to be a modern and mysterious movement which should be feared. Just to make sure we are talking about the same guy.

What did he offer to Satanism? Only harm. His "teachings" existed already.
What did he invent? Atheism.
How did he indirectly benefit Satanism? He slandered it by turning it to a stupid atheistic business, fucking up all of its previous fame, for his own benefit.
What did he offer to occultism? Nothing. He made it atheistic instead of Satanic. Plus none of the ritualistic translations he wrote were correct.

As for Christian atheism. Well, you understand how stupid this sounds if we consider that "Christ" means "Anointed One", right? Anointed by who? Whose Christ? Whose Messiah? "Mr. Not-God's"?

And there are some historical connections between atheism and Satanism. The term "Satanist" in English was originally applied to atheists. "Reason," wrote Martin Luther, "is Satan's whore." And when atheists bring up the Problem of Evil to discredit Christianity, they use many of the same arguments theistic Satanists use to discredit the Christian god (i.e., if the Christian god is omnipotent and good, how can he allow suffering and evil in the world, etc.) Read any of what is termed the "higher criticism" of the Bible and you'll see what I mean: all those passages where Yahweh is exposed as a moral monster are highlighted, like the ones where he tells the Israelites to slaughter all the males of the peoples they conquer, right down to the new born babies and male animals. Satanists point our the same passages, make the very same arguments, often in the very same words. This is precisely why Christian fundamentalists think atheism is Satanic. The very first thing that modern Catholic and Christian fundamentalist critics of Gnosticism point out is that the Gnostics use the same arguments as atheists. They also point to the fact that the word "science" in Latin means "knowledge", and is the word used to translate the Greek word "Gnosis". They point out that the Church fathers said that Gnosticism was "science falsely so-called" and that the present-day physical sciences, rationalism, Darwinism, etc., (inasmuch as they discredit Christian belief) are "science falsely so-called". They see a connection and are positively horrified by it. In fact atheist works are really good source books in which to find ammunition against Christianity because atheists point out the contradictions and inconsistencies in Christianity and its god in virtually the same terms as the Gnostics did. The Gnostics, too, exposed Yahweh as a moral monster.

So you are not a Christian because the Demiurge (that is to say, the God of Jewish mythology who started as the god of war of their pantheon, and the Gnostics believed he was Satan), is what you consider evil? Pfff... "He's a bad God. He doesn't want me to blow him."

Christians always considered Satanic everything opposing their direct or indirect manipulation by a Church that has even chosen which books they should read according to what serves its purpose the most. They called the muslims Satanists too during the Middle Ages. They used to consider the pagans worshipers of Satan as well. In fact, it's pretty difficult to find something that has never been considered Satanic by Christians. Alas, some of them (who are actually very strong adherents of the Church's tradition) even preach that the Beast of the Book of Revelation is the Catholic Church. So your point is wrong.

By the way, this reminds me of:
- You are a faggot.
- What are you talking about? You are the one who likes getting fucked by men.
- Yes, but you are a faggot in spirit since you are racist towards me for my sexual choices, so I'm more man than you.

Finally, the word "Satanic" is an adjective often used metaphorically. How can anyone possibly prevent that? Christianity is a much bigger threat to Satanism than atheism will ever be. At least atheists believe in free thought. Christians believe in George Orwell, and in Oceania no one is allowed to think except for Big Brother. I for one am not a fundamentalist Satanist, because I regard fundamentalism as one of the many vile attributes of Christianity, and I want nothing whatsoever to do with anything that is Christian. I don't worship Christ; I worship Satan, the anti-fundamentalist. And I am a Gnostic Satanist. Gnosticism is based on direct religious experience, not on the inerrancy or infallibility of texts and teachings. Look at the Nag Hammadi Gnostic library: no two texts are exactly alike, no infallibility of texts implied or even possible, almost as many Gnostic sects as there were individual Gnostics. There is no way of reconciling them because each text is based on each author’s own individual experience of Gnosis.

"Metaphorically". No shit. Using it metaphorically is not enough to make someone a Satanist. Choose another fucking metaphor, not a Theistic one, assholes. Try saint Valentine, try Hermaphrodite, try Narcissus who was also a gay... narcissist. Besides, it's much easier to connect these figures with sexual immorality than an entity as active, strong, feared and rebellious as Satan.

It's the fame and the reputation of the real worshipers of Satan who are threatened here. The Lord will always fuck up people's mind, preventing them to resist His Will. What we, as Diabololators, want is to see His Will being done without Him hiding anymore.

Since LaVey Diabolism (about which Crowley, Edward Waite and Eliphas Levi actually spoke) has been harmed severely. I used to be a fanatically protesting Theistic Satanist / Diabololator. Now I prefer using terms like "Heretic Christian" to describe myself because I don't want to be mistaken for a nymphomaniac pacifist feminist atheist calling ITSELF a Satanist for no reason whatsoever.

And for the record, I never indirectly affirmed that LaVeyism or atheism was Satanic in my initial response to xxxidd, or at the very least that was not my intention at the time. (Now I am attempting a more thoughtful reply.) I simply directed xxxidd to The Satanic Temple (the name of the organisation) without commenting on its Satanic-ness or lack of Satanic-ness because he/she was in the market for something in that line. If xxxidd had wanted Crowley and asked about Crowley, I would have referred him/her to his/her local chapter of the O.T.O., even though I hate Crowley and the O.T.O. and reject Liber AL vel Legis [The Book of the Law]. If xxxidd had asked for directions to a store where he/she could buy a quart of milk, I would have given him/her some suggestions. I never could have dreamed that such a simple referral could result in such unmitigated hostility.

"The Satanic Temple is a non-theistic variety of Satanism."

No, it's not!

If I were to take seriously your belief that it is unacceptable for theistic Satanists to indirectly affirm that LaVeyanism and atheism are Satanic and then apply that principle to my own life, then I would have to disown all of my friends who follow LaVey or who are non-theistic Satanists (or if you prefer, pseudo-Satanists); either that, or I would constantly be arguing and/or engaging in flame wars with them which would only make my life and theirs a misery, and there's no hedonism in misery. People would just walk away from the argument with precisely the same views that they walked in with—unchanged, and with pent-up rage and frustration the only reward for their trouble. So what would the point be? (I've always hated doing things that had no point.) Like the old saying goes, you can catch more rabbits with a carrot than you can with a stick. And I find heresy-hunting much more suited to Church Inquisitors than to Satanists. Don't forget that it was THEY who burnt US at the stake along with atheists. With Satanists facing so many powerful enemies from without it does not in the least advance our cause for Satanists (or "those who call themselves Satanists, whether they are or not") to be at each other's throats. In military strategy, that kind of thing only serves the enemy. Is there no room for honestly and sincerely (and without any malice implied or intended) agreeing to disagree? No room for civil debate free of abuse and rancour? If not, then that's the end of this thread for me: no more posts. Peace! Ad majorem Satanae gloriam!

As for the first part of the paragraph, of course you should:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

As for the Inquisition, it seems absolutely normal to me. Every war has victims on both sides. However I cannot recall many Diabolists getting burnt. Most of the victims were either pagans or completely innocent who didn't hide exactly because they considered themselves innocent. The Satanists knew they needed to hide, thus only a few of them were caught in extreme cases like that of Gill de Rais. Now, apart of that, I do believe that as pure Diabololators we have fucked and killed and sodomized more Christians than the Satanists they have burnt. As for the atheists, well, the bad thing is not that they were burnt, but that they are not getting burnt anymore. Additionally, in my estimation, Satanism originated from Christianity, and thus Christianity shouldn't be considered a threat, especially now that it has lost most of its power because of the blasphemous beliefs which oppose Theism as a whole, including Satanism, and not particularly Christianity.


Well, you said many unnecessary bullshit about your beliefs, so I'll tell you some things about mine. The Demiourge is certainly not Yahweh because if it was him he would introduce himself as the Demiourge of the world from the beginning. He wouldn't wait for the Jews to become monotheists in order to say he created the world. Was it Satan? Perhaps. Now, I don't have a problem with a decisive God who kills the ones who oppose him along with their children. In fact, that's how I believe Satan is. My problem with Yahweh is that he is stupid, insecure (he even claimed he is jealous, and, as a Gnostic text I read a few days ago points out, "Of whom is he jealous if he is the only real God?") and primitive. Plus the Jews would call every supernatural occurrence "divine" and every supernatural entity "Yahweh, the Creator of everything" because of their strong monotheism. So, in my estimation, Yahweh is not only one God, he is every single entity that could possibly appear to the Jews back then, including Satan.

Anyway, when I read about Satanism I don't wanna read about sexual rights, I don't wanna read about how evil Jehovah is, I don't wanna read about racism or anti-racism, I don't wanna read about how free atheism is, I don't even wanna know what the fuck atheism is. I want to read about Satan's sadistic vengeance on His enemies and the enemies of His followers. I wanna read about the Satanic, dark Gnosis, absolutely spiritual and only occasionally but just actively carnal, Occultism and dark arts, and how my Lord will infect the ones who reject His secret Gnosis, His Name and His existence, with so much torment that no human would ever be able to endure without their hearts stopping, and yet He will never allow their hearts to stop. Besides, that's the best way of opposing a threat:

"Ok, assholes, my God doesn't exist. Ok, He has no power. I have no power. Ok, reject to give Him the honor He demands. Sure, persecute me now. But when He comes for you I'll be masturbating with your cries."

(Which is also the message of my favorite book, which is the Book of Revelation, to the pagans. By the way, it's pretty important to notice that people keep rejecting God in the Book of Revelation specifically because they consider Him evil.)

P.S. Getting banned in 3, 2, 1...

[Clockwork Ghost]

At Occult Forum.org, we do not accept racist, sexist, homophobic hate speech of any kind. We do not accept bullying, nor comments that directly attack any aspect of another member, either true or imagined. Any infractions will be met with a warning. Once you receive three warnings, you are banned. Mourn has now been banned from this forum, and is no longer welcome here.