The big web of Occult practise.

[Atzmuth]

Did anyone talk with the moderators about the issue?

[Clockwork Ghost]

Did anyone talk with the moderators about the issue?

I'm a moderator. I have raised the topic with the administration staff. The matter is under consideration. Please be patient.

[Clockwork Ghost]

the partcipation in the forum will be higher and more people will be able to learn about occult just by being a member of the group rather than joining groups like AMORC etc. and they wont be paying something.

Atzmuth, and others who wish to contribute, I would like you to expand on this statement please. How will participation become higher? How are we going to attract all these students?

Also, I have received no PM's with information concerning what people can teach.

[Ramscha]

Might it be that it in itself is a good idea but that the conviction is not so great and solid yet? Not good if we want to get such a mammut project started!

@ clock: Btw. I will stick to the pm I sent you when you started the thread. I still think it is a good idea. Even if its just 3 so far, it is better then zero.

Ramscha

[Clockwork Ghost]

Might it be that it in itself is a good idea but that the conviction is not so great and solid yet? Not good if we want to get such a mammut project started?

Yep, pretty much sums up how I feel about this too.

@ clock: Btw. I will stick to the pm I sent you when you started the thread. I still think it is a good idea. Even if its just 3 so far, it is better then zero.

Ramscha

Thank you Ramscha [grin]

[Nahemah]

Clockwork_Ghost has informed both Vashta and I about this and we are discussing the issues and possibilities.

As he said above, please be patient and do keep discussing and adding your opinions and ideas to the relevant threads, this one and CG's thread on areas of expertise. [thumbup]

[EternalReturn]

To make it easy for both teachers and pupils a teacher can write out the curriculum, make posts, podcasts, youtube videos and everything he deems necessary, as well as practices, and some sort of self grading system(if you achieve this you're 10% finished or some other way).

Whole study course would be finalized, written, including "homework", so whenever someone wants (even few years after the publication) to learn, he can learn and he can do homework and publish it into specified topic where he could be graded by community members as well as the author of the course.

That could speed things up, but there could be a problem with hotheadedness so moderators will have more job to do by cleaning all the spam.

To conclude:

1. Topic with study material and exercises/homeworks
2. Topic with questions about the course
3. Topic with homeworks, essays about exercises

That would be the outline, topic with courses should be closed so there is only study material there.

With this anyone can follow it, anytime, even if the original teacher is not present. Also "teachers lounge", like a hidden section of the forum should be available so that teachers can share their notes, advices, and generally talk about it. So if anyone competent would like to inherit some existing course, he can have the input written by the original teacher like, which books and materials he used, which paradigm etc.

My two cents [smile]

[Desecrated]

How about a simple poll to judge the interest.

"How many wants to join our new occult sect"

Also, we have to come up with a cool name, like, order of hidden gnosis or something like that.

[Atzmuth]

Chapther 1:
New ones are taught basics.
People in this chapther are called "The New Blood".
Chapther 2:
In this chapther teachings get more diverse and complex.
People in this chapther are called "The Shining One".
Chapther 3:
In this chapther studies heavily rely on practising what is taught on previous chapthers.
People in this chapther are called "The Fire Of Owl".
Chapther 4:
If wanted, the ones who finished the 3rd chapther can take a final test to be a teacher and to get the title "Grand Inquisitor".

Note: Teachers are reffered as "Grand Inquisitor".

About the name for the group how about "The Order Of The Harmony". I gave this name since my philosophy turns around the idea of "As above So below". And as Newton says; " Every action has an equal opposite reaction".

[Ramscha]

Grand Inquisitor

Arghs, bad memories of burning stacks and man hunts. Very bad memories [bummed]

But before it goes to name and all the fancy details we should focus on the foundation: Who does what, how to organize everything, where to put the robes and brooms, stuff like that.

Ramscha

[Atzmuth]

Moderators and voluntary teachers deicide what they are going to teach then later on they make a schedule and then that schedule will be regluated accoring to the plan I proposed, If you guys agree so. And I would really like to learn about that bad memory sometime.

[Clockwork Ghost]

I have created a poll for this, which can be found here: http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =4&t=37190

Please remember that there are many questions regarding this which still need to be answered, and these will need to be addressed before such a venture becomes feasable. Again, please remember that this is still in the initial phases - creating hierarchies and group names will come later, if this ever gets off the ground.

[Atzmuth]

Thank you Clockwork_Ghost for your interest. I do hope this project will come alive.

[Atzmuth]

Oh, I forgot to answer the question about what is going to be taught. Teachers will give everything they have on hand based on a schedule. It really depends on who we have to volutarily support us as a teacher. Becouse we cant demand a teacher who is good at X topic to explain us the Z topic. But as I say If we settle down who is with us everything will be ok.

[Clockwork Ghost]

To make it easy for both teachers and pupils a teacher can write out the curriculum, make posts, podcasts, youtube videos and everything he deems necessary, as well as practices, and some sort of self grading system(if you achieve this you're 10% finished or some other way).

I like this idea, but it still requires a teacher who has enough spare time to commit to such a thing, and who doesn't want any form of payment. The more we are asking teachers to do, the less likely it is we will find someone who fits this criteria.

Whole study course would be finalized, written, including "homework", so whenever someone wants (even few years after the publication) to learn, he can learn and he can do homework and publish it into specified topic where he could be graded by community members as well as the author of the course.

This is also a good idea - having a collection of such material would result in a very useful resource. Same problem though - who do we get to do this?

That could speed things up, but there could be a problem with hotheadedness so moderators will have more job to do by cleaning all the spam.

I'm happy to do so. [thumbup]

To conclude:

1. Topic with study material and exercises/homeworks
2. Topic with questions about the course
3. Topic with homeworks, essays about exercises

Very nice conclusion, EternalReturn. Thank you for ensuring that people understand where you are coming from. [yay]

That would be the outline, topic with courses should be closed so there is only study material there.

Another very good idea - this would ensure that information was easy to find and identify, and not just rambling threads of conjecture.

With this anyone can follow it, anytime, even if the original teacher is not present. Also "teachers lounge", like a hidden section of the forum should be available so that teachers can share their notes, advices, and generally talk about it. So if anyone competent would like to inherit some existing course, he can have the input written by the original teacher like, which books and materials he used, which paradigm etc.

So two hidden boards? One for the lessons/students and one for the teachers? How would this work under the proposed plan to have teachers and students rotating, based on their experiences and willingness to teach? What happens if a teacher then wants to become a student? Do they lose access to the teachers lounge?

My two cents [smile]

Thank you very much for your contribution [thumbup]

[Clockwork Ghost]

Thank you Clockwork_ghost for your interest. I do hope this project will come alive.

Not a problem. You have to remember that other forums have attempted to do this, and the results have often been a chaotic mess of elitism and complete confusion as to who is supposed to be doing what. Teachers have then given up under the weight of trolling, and students who didn't measure up have become extremely disruptive. As I've said previously - authorities on occult subjects have started occult themed schools, but they either do so under strict conditions, or for money.

Please also go back over the thread and try to answer the questions I've posed that have yet to be addressed, in particular; how you plan on getting all these students, and how you plan on getting all the teachers - as I've said, I have had no PM messages from anyone willing to teach so far. [thumbup]

[Deathquota]

I'm still here, and interested. But this is up to the community now (I'm certainly not experienced enough).

I like this idea, but it still requires a teacher who has enough spare time to commit to such a thing, and who doesn't want any form of payment. The more we are asking teachers to do, the less likely it is we will find someone who fits this criteria.

maybe the simpler the better.

I don't know about you Atzmuth, but I wouldn't expected very long winded nuanced lectures (why not use youtube then?). Just a competent teacher who interacts with the students. We still vastly underestimate how much energy this might require. I can commit to this. Just a note here: I have absolutely no idea how one would go about teaching occult practices to others.

I like the seminar format personally when digesting information. You could create a book club type thread with people if you really wanted to study something specific. I believe that in any learning environment, good students are required. But in seminars that run without lectures, the conversation needs to be driven by the student's energy to learn and directed by the teacher who offer knowledge and material to discuss.

[RoseRed]

How would the things that can only be taught 'hands on' be taught?

[manonthepath]

How would the things that can only be taught 'hands on' be taught?

Indeed.

[Clockwork Ghost]

How would the things that can only be taught 'hands on' be taught?

Indeed.

Yep - definitely something else that will need to be considered. I've been in plenty of internet based groups that have taught me much about the occult, but at the end of the day you need to get out and practice what you've learnt. Doing this with others is so much more beneficial than doing it alone.

[RoseRed]

I've been teaching my daughter and it is really very hard. I can't even imagine (I've tried) how to begin teaching the hands on things online. Much of what she's been taught has never been written down and she'll pass it along to her child/ren someday, if she has them.

Perhaps, it's because I'm coming from the perspective of the witchcraft and not Ceremonial style magicks. Some things are a hell of a lot easier to show than to try to explain. Some things I have no idea how to even begin explaining without being able to show and do together.

[JohnTitor]

All-

Creating an independent school of magickal learning on a free internet forum has certain problems that would need to be overcome, namely:

1. What benefit would a teacher gain from teaching? In the mundane world, teachers get paid to teach. Are you willing to pay someone to teach you things?
2. What criteria would you use to make sure that prospective students weren't just trolls? Lots of trolls online.
3. If you're simply going to get everyone to share their own knowledge, then why complicate matters? You already have a forum packed with information, why do you need to have a special area for learning when there is so much information already here?
4. Who will set the curriculum, decide who is and isn't worthy to teach, ensure that students attend, monitor quality of lessons, and ensure that homework is completed? What will you do with students and/or teachers who prove to be incompetent?

I'm not knocking ...ideas ...., I just want you to expand upon them a bit, and to think how best to implement them. If this project gets off the ground it's going to have one shot - if it turns into one big cumbersome mess of elitism and vainglorious examples of one-upmanship then what will you have achieved?

1:What benefit would a teacher gain, and would you be willing to pay should it be required?
A- Many a great teacher or sensei have asked nothing and gained only satisfaction in seeing the growth and blossoming of their pupil for the betterment of at least ONE, even if the ALL is not overtly affected. The only logical conclusion is to have the poll (which nobody has responded to Clockwork_Ghost, so clearly it is unimportant in the minds of all of you who so claim to desire at least a trial period) and go from there. I have noted that out of over 8000 members, there are only truly about a hundred who visit frequently for whatever reason; be it time, resources (computer, internet etc..) or any others. There should be an active poll (though i've seen little results thus far on this site with those that have been started) regarding who is willing to volunteer and how often they can. Updates can come as regularly as possible within each field. I feel that there should never be a price for information except TIME and EFFORT. If I am willing to learn and TRUST- you should be willing to TEACH so to speak. This topic has already shown that a response to designated questions in any sort of order or format is night impossible when all you have is those wanting THEIR opinion heard, and not actually broaching the subjects needed to fully bring about the change or trial. New topics seem the best way, since nobody PM's but Clockwork_Ghost it seems. This being said, if all of you are incapable of messaging a Moderator regarding pertinent information to a topic you seem so interested in, how can you expect to manage in a school environment? Much less the Teachers responding to a question a student may have.
a: Teacher would need to volunteer as there would need to be more coding added to the site for payments to be made. End of story.
b: Doesn't matter if you are willing to pay or not, that can be discussed between Teachers and students as donations vs actual payments, and still requires coding changes to be made in order to ensure that no harm shall befall the payees and recipients.

2: What criteria would you use to make sure that prospective students weren't just trolls? Lots of trolls online.
A- There should be a limit of posts, or do not allow the student to post except as perhaps a PM, or in a separate thread much as Eternal mentioned;

1. Topic with study material and exercises/homeworks
2. Topic with questions about the course
3. Topic with homeworks, essays about exercises

This ensures that at least SOMEONE is following through. What people want are tutorials from what I have seen on the site even more so than a study group. They want a "tell me how it's done and then i'll move on" environment. Someone else mentioned that it increases the work on the mod's end. This is true because if we bypass any sort of filtering out who can and who cannot (having a system of differentiating whomever YOU deem a troll is purely subjective and one may have been improperly educated leading to his dismissal from the forum- this is not the correct way to do things.) Each moderator may or may not have to try and establish an understanding of said "troll"s and their beliefs before removing any content or barring access to anyone. Also, one cannot discount a lack of affinity for a lack of prospective or potential. This has been repeated through the ages in legends as often times the underdog may come out on top.

a: Criteria to be eliminated- substituted by moderation action and teacher intervention with students. I am including the possibility of spam mail that is irrelevant and obnoxious, but that is why i mentioned on the School of Magickal Learning on OF post that there MUST BE an interpersonal relationship between those willing to construct a curriculum to assist in the learning and practical implementation of the teaching/subject. Only once the nature of said "trolling" has been assessed by both TEACHER and at least ONE MODERATOR (perhaps more if grey area).
There will also need to be a ramification system to prevent future indiscretion or misbehavior by those who have been deemed by both Teach and Mod to be "trolls" or whatever.* I propose a 3 warning system by moderator or administration before actually banning them. I hate to suggest a ban system because even the mods or teachers can make mistakes and are by no means infallible, though this is the BEST method of weeding them out while still giving them a chance to correct their actions and still be allowed to utilize the sources herein (yes I know they can make a new account or just browse as guest, but now they know in case A- and they are unable to add material in case B).

3: If you're simply going to get everyone to share their own knowledge, then why complicate matters? You already have a forum packed with information, why do you need to have a special area for learning when there is so much information already here?
A- The huge lack of organization. I have spent many hours perusing the contents of subject of interest myself, and there is much clutter and impertinent information within each Thread simply because a poster may have a different idea of where it goes than what it actually falls into. There are also many cases where it gets so off topic that it is no longer beneficial to the inquirer nor those who are reading. Once there is a conflict of opinion, it blows into a debate and while yes it can be learned from, it is still up to each to make the choice to learn instead of become self-justifiably angry and start posting opinionated crap. There are many more issues what can be solved by an organized, STRICTLY moderated, and specific methodology of relaying information on a certain subject. I mentioned this though in less detail in a PM to Clockwork_Ghost regarding the School, as well as on my post in the SoMLoOF Topic.

a: Organization
b: Clutter
c: Pertinence
d: Structure to methods

4: Who will set the curriculum, decide who is and isn't worthy to teach, ensure that students attend, monitor quality of lessons, and ensure that homework is completed? What will you do with students and/or teachers who prove to be incompetent?
A- Someone mentioned Mods and teachers fulfilling all those requirements. It is also addressed slightly in question 2. If they aren't competent then they also face the threefold rule so to speak. Three strikes/warnings. Posts must also come at the instructors allotted time- and each release should be mentioned in prior lessons so as to know when to expect the next chapter/phase/degree. (e.g. Chapter one is released on meditation- in the footnotes there is a mentioned date referring to when we may expect the teacher to have enough time to come and produce more material for us to follow. The in between time may be used to spend time on each students questions via PM, and discussion amongst each other as a student in real school will often do {ask your peers}) Moderators will of course (including ADMIN- I see far too little activity by them, just as a major corporation ignores its franchises until it's a liability {and i most certainly would love to see them active more}) take it upon themselves to MONITOR the goings about in the forums and of course ask each teacher about progress and possible nuisances or liabilities to the structure. We now beg the question of government within the site. Checks and Balances- exemptions based on a jury so to speak such as with the 3 strike rule. I do not see how these have all been avoided, and everything else discussed >.<

Sincerely-
Titor

[EternalReturn]

Whoa, I missed this somehow. Sorry [shh]

To make it easy for both teachers and pupils a teacher can write out the curriculum, make posts, podcasts, youtube videos and everything he deems necessary, as well as practices, and some sort of self grading system(if you achieve this you're 10% finished or some other way).

I like this idea, but it still requires a teacher who has enough spare time to commit to such a thing, and who doesn't want any form of payment. The more we are asking teachers to do, the less likely it is we will find someone who fits this criteria.

Well, the teacher is not obliged to all of these things. If he thinks it's better to write it down, let him write it down. If he thinks he can do better with spoken words and gestures - youtube. It's not necessary to do all of these things at once.

Whole study course would be finalized, written, including "homework", so whenever someone wants (even few years after the publication) to learn, he can learn and he can do homework and publish it into specified topic where he could be graded by community members as well as the author of the course.

This is also a good idea - having a collection of such material would result in a very useful resource. Same problem though - who do we get to do this?

Anyone who would like to do it. Occult is very large area so, you don't have to write a book about it. Someone who was interested in, say, Astral projection can read about it, practice it and then write down like an essay what was his conclusion, line of thought, books and ideas that fuelled his investigation, as well as reading list, perhaps some things he thinks he missed, practices and such.

It can be very well interwoven with one's experience and path. Similar to the academic essays.

Anyone who can teach himself can be a teacher. The only situation which can be a little troublesome is if the teacher would like to do live teaching through skype and such. I think it should be avoided and strictly put into the context of the forum communication by posts, pm's and such.

With this anyone can follow it, anytime, even if the original teacher is not present. Also "teachers lounge", like a hidden section of the forum should be available so that teachers can share their notes, advices, and generally talk about it. So if anyone competent would like to inherit some existing course, he can have the input written by the original teacher like, which books and materials he used, which paradigm etc.

So two hidden boards? One for the lessons/students and one for the teachers? How would this work under the proposed plan to have teachers and students rotating, based on their experiences and willingness to teach? What happens if a teacher then wants to become a student? Do they lose access to the teachers lounge?

That could be a good user magnet. Hidden board which unlocks after some number of posts written.

Concerning user types, if a Teacher wishes to be a student it doesn't mean you should change his/her's role. Teacher's a teacher, an he can return to the lounge anytime. He has some experience, and his insights might prove valuable to others.

This could fit in with the idea that anyone can write out a curriculum. Before publishing the curriculum to the Student's section, someone posts like a "beta" version in the Teachers lounge, so others can say "hey I don't understand this/you missed this/what are prerequisites" etc.

Teachers should not be immune to learning [smile]

So with the contribution of many members this can be fast and quality work, interwoven with personal practices and materials used. There are many paths, so there can be many different ways to teach one thing which would give the students a chance to chose a path which resonates with them the most. Not everyone has the same fond of knowledge.


I could present some outline of an essay:

1. Prerequisites
2. Main content
3. Bibliography
4. Further reading/Critique
5. Exercises/Homework


Point 4. should be used for commentaries about one's own work like what you have missed, what you've not presented, defined, or explained very well, possible mistakes, vague points and such which would lead to the watering down.

I believe that this would be efficient, structured, woudn't take much time to do, and be very enjoyable.

[JohnTitor]

I very much enjoyed reading your additions Eternal. I still think that the issue of WILLING participants has yet to be covered/fixed. Clockwork_Ghost has requested any of us interested in teaching to message about what possible areas said participants may be capable of teaching and to what degree. I think I am going to take an introspective assessment of my own ability and knowledge, and find where it is I am the best suited for helping others learn from STEP 1 It would benefit the site greatly, as well as the discussion if- even those of us who think we aren't fit for teaching still assess their knowledge and ability within each paradigm of practice and study. I do believe that there must be a catalyst to get this to come to fruition, and I hope that as a team and online family of sorts, we can overcome this watcher on the threshold together. Seems to me as though he has been here from the beginning.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Whoa, I missed this somehow. Sorry [shh]

No problem. This idea is still under development. I'm not going to abandon it until we either all decide that it isn't feasible, or we implement it.

So two hidden boards? One for the lessons/students and one for the teachers? How would this work under the proposed plan to have teachers and students rotating, based on their experiences and willingness to teach? What happens if a teacher then wants to become a student? Do they lose access to the teachers lounge?

That could be a good user magnet. Hidden board which unlocks after some number of posts written.

I'm a little bit unsure as to what you mean here - do you mean a board that unlocks after it contains a certain number of posts, or a board that is unlocked after a member posts a certain number of times to the forum?

Concerning user types, if a Teacher wishes to be a student it doesn't mean you should change his/her's role. Teacher's a teacher, an he can return to the lounge anytime. He has some experience, and his insights might prove valuable to others.

Thanks for clarifying this. It would suggest however that teachers wouldn't be able to post anything in the teachers lounge which could benefit any student, as there will probably be students in the teachers lounge.

This could fit in with the idea that anyone can write out a curriculum. Before publishing the curriculum to the Student's section, someone posts like a "beta" version in the Teachers lounge, so others can say "hey I don't understand this/you missed this/what are prerequisites" etc.

Interesting idea. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. [thumbup]