What language to use

[Desecrated]

I have my own answer to this, but I kinda want to see what your answer is.

What language should one use for magic. If the spell is in Latin, should one translate it to English or go with the Latin one?
If the spell is in English, is it okay for me to translate it to Swedish?

How about the traditional seal and sigil in goetica and such, they often use Hebrew. Should one translate them to ones mother-tongue.

Does the magician have to learn greek, latin and hebrew?
How about you who deal with Asian stuff, how many of you actually speak the language?

[manonthepath]

For me using a language one does not understand or speak with some fluency will be of little help. Learning words to recite will be of even less help. Certain terms that have personal significance can be helpful.

[Shinichi]

I prefer to craft my own spells so I rarely meet a language barrier, but there are a few principles to keep in mind when you do.

1) Language is tied to Culture. The Hebrew spells in the Goetia are important, because the Goetia is a Judeo-Christian system of Evocation that utilizes Kabbalistic Formulas, which is a Judaic system of Incantation that utilizes the Hebrew Language. Context is important. I could just as easily write those sort of spells in English, or Old Norse, or Latin, and many utilize such translations. However, at the end of the day, those things are foreign to the spirits themselves. The spirits of the Goetia are middle eastern, and they respond better to the middle eastern language used in those incantations and sigils. Anything else, though it may work, is foreign to them. Just like those spirits themselves are foreign to me, as someone connected to the Teutonic and North American spirits.

2) Language has its own soul and power, the quality of which changes depending on how that language is used and how many people uses it. Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Sanskrit, Enochian, and a few other languages have for centuries been reserved for either scholarly or spiritual usage. As a consequence, these languages have acquired a metaphysical, almost talismanic Charge that makes them a little more metaphysically potent than widely spoken and degraded (in metaphysical quality, not morality) languages when used a certain way.

3) At the end of the day, Language is simply a tool for communication. It is the meaning of what you are saying and how you say it that is important, far more important than which language you use to communicate that meaning. This is why I write most of my own incantations, or thoroughly study another incantation that I have learned so that I understand the meaning. Though with all that said, communication involves two parts -- a speaker and a listener. If you speak your meaning and your listener doesn't understand it, then you've failed to communicate. So as I said before, context is important.

And when it's all said and done, unless you want to become a polyglot, just use the language that you like the most. My preference is English, though I do have a thing for Old Norse. Most spirits can understand when you speak anyway, so when it comes to speaking with them, it goes back to the importance of what you say and how you say it over what language you use.



~:Shin:~

[Clockwork Ghost]

I've never been able to come to a solid conclusion as to what I believe in regards to the use of specific languages in Magick. I personally agree with what both Shinichi and manonthepath have said above. I have spent time studying Latin, and completed a university degree in English Language and Literature, and I really enjoy studying linguistics whenever I have the opportunity to do so.

I feel that it definitely adds gravitas to a ritual if you use the correct language in the same way that using seals, circles, triangles, wands, robes, and other occult paraphernalia does. Even Chaos Magic requires that you bypass the 'psychic censor', and making things seem more 'magikal' can definitely help in achieving this. That said, trying to recite an entire ritual in Greek when you don't have any understanding of pronunciation is rather ridiculous. If you're going to use a language, then you should definitely at least know how to say what you want to say, if not fully understand what it means.

Personal experience has led me to believe that spiritual and supernatural entities et al don't use verbal communication unless they have to, and will communicate by other means - feelings, pictures, etc. This isn't to say that such things don't talk, because they do, but they will use whatever method they please to get their message across. I also believe that they can access thoughts just as easily as they can understand words, and the fact that practicioners all over the world use common paradigms of magic would suggest that language isn't a barrier.

This is where I confuse myself - I also believe that the best way to make contact with the required entities in a paradigm is to use that paradigms parameters. I'm a Chaos Magician, but if I'm doing a Demonolatry ritual I will use the right enns, and not just rely on sigils. I do sometimes cut and merge paradigms together, but will also use the required material for each part, dependant on the associated parameters. For some reason, it just works better for me to do this.

Like I said, I am confused... [confused]

[Desecrated]

Just like those spirits themselves are foreign to me, as someone connected to the Teutonic and North American spirits.

My preference is English, though I do have a thing for Old Norse.

Not to be mean, but nowadays nobody is using terms as Teutonic unless you are talking about the specific tribe Teutons. There is no unified north European culture and there never was.

Also, do you speak old Norse or any of the modern Scandinavian languages?

And when I'm at it, you've mentioned gladr in the past. Where did you learn that.

[Ramscha]

Not to be mean, but nowadays nobody is using terms as Teutonic unless you are talking about the specific tribe Teutons. There is no unified north European culture and there never was.

That is what makes them so interesting in my opinion. Docends of tribes, a lot of different futharks, each with its own characterists same as the tribes, starting from their early days until the formation of the bigger tribe groups. Different languages and dialects, teritorries, some deities in common but still their own local characteristics as well as name, some bound local, some seemingly common to a bigger area...

I could continue the list.

That is one of the points why I find the "norse path" so interesting, it is because it is a very dynamic field and able to confuse and surprise one every time you look at it. You cannot nail it in one area and say "this" is it, it is amorphic, in a lack of a better word.

But to come back to the topic, depending on the occasion I mostly use either High German or my local austrian dialect, a variation of German.
Additionally I use english from time to time, mostly when the material I work with is in english as well, that safes me from getting things lost in translation. Aside from that of course chaos words (you can find a lot about that on http://www.chaosmatrix.org) and words from other languages with a personal meaning, mostly when they have that certain "ring" in their sound if you get my point

Ramscha

[Shinichi]

Not to be mean, but nowadays nobody is using terms as Teutonic unless you are talking about the specific tribe Teutons. There is no unified north European culture and there never was.

That's a matter of semantics now. Most modern occult authors in the West do either use Teutonic or Germanic, not to refer to a unified culture, but to refer to the geographic region to which these things belong. No, there never was a unified culture, nor was there a unified system of magic, and that is why even today we are allowed and able to have a wide diversity of Craft and practitioners.

Also, do you speak old Norse or any of the modern Scandinavian languages?

I'm in the process of learning Old Norse, and I intend to be fluent with it before I'm done. I don't know if I'll spend much time on the modern languages, though I might learn Icelandic and Dutch for fun.

And when I'm at it, you've mentioned gladr in the past. Where did you learn that.

Galdr is one of the more difficult things that I've tried to learn if only because there is no good singular source to teach it, and I presently use the term to cover all magic associated with Norse Incantation. Which, as far as I am concerned, includes Rune Magic, the Power of individual Words, and the Power of Poetry or Song. I didn't learn it from any one place as much as I have looked for principles and pieces in many different sources, including many hours of meditation and magic, and build my own method from everything I learned. I am also still in the process of learning this too, though, and probably always will be. Galdr, like any tradition of Incantation or any magical craft, has great depths and requires a great amount of time and dedication.



~:Shin:~

[palindrom]

each language has it's own specific sound, vowel-colours (which means also overtone-range), frequency of certain consonants and vowels, rhythm and melody - so this, one could certainly use (never did it, thanks for giving me the idea).
but also, a language has a certain amount of history attached to it, which should be considered when using it magically, i suppose...
...personally i'm wary of the henochian.

to call the runes i play around with their names, until the resonance "klicks" - it's not always the exact same name that fits the rune most; sometimes it's more a consonant in the rune-name that does it, sometimes the vowel, sometimes a certain combination or way to chant it.

i love the effect of the different vowels and consonants - the low, growling "oh" (like in "you"), the chestopening "a", the fiery "eh" (like in... do you have this at all in english? a very closed "eh", almost "ee" like in... beer, but still an "eh"). the german vowel "ü" (french "u") i find to have very good protecting powers...
also the consonants, do i want to use the fiery power of "s", or the cutting "tz", or the "t" which projects outward - or the mellow "m", or the slightly more stingy "n"?

that's how i love to use language. and i get really quite powerful results with it, space echoing around me like water, in which i threw a stone.

...funnily enough, the strongest results i get when i'm doing all of this loudless - in doing it loudless, i can use my imagination to enhance the sound-quality, so to speak : D

apart from pure sound-power, i prefer my mother-tongue, swiss-german. it's just closest to who i am...

[Haelos]

I usually use English for my spells that aren't as thought out, because it's my first language. It's easy to use, and has very diverse ways of expressing thoughts.
I translate certain spells to Latin, mostly because it sounds pretty to the ear, but I'm not very experienced with it as a language, as I usually spend more time on translation than on the spell itself. I usually do this for spells I plan on using multiple different times, but it isn't very practical as a language to learn, except for scholarly reasons.

I know a few spells in Sanskrit, but I would really enjoy to learn the language itself.
Sanskrit and Hebrew letters, when spoken at the proper frequency, actually produce the character that is used to represent them. These two cultures knew something special about spoken vibration that they incorporated into their writing and speech, so I feel these two languages would be the best to learn or use in spell work.
This aspect is what causes these two languages to be magickal, and this is also why we "vibrate" their words or gutturals, rather than simply speaking them from the throat.
I'm sure a couple other ancient languages share this feature, but I wouldn't know for sure.

I think if a spell is written in a certain language, unless you're completely reworking it, it'd be a good idea to perform it as is, and just become familiar with what it means that you're saying. I mean, it is someone's handiwork you're using. Sometimes it's nice to give credit to the creator by actually performing a ritual as they wrote it.
For your own personal written rituals or spells, that's a preference you have to come to on your own.

[Urscumug]

Find your own using glossolalia as described in this interesting article

[Bluebeard]

Latin is considered the "pure" and "holy" language, for "good" work. English is considered to be the unclean, foul language (medieval belief, that one, about those two languages). So if you want some bad effects like cursing, then english is the one?

[Clockwork Ghost]

Latin is considered the "pure" and "holy" language, for "good" work. English is considered to be the unclean, foul language (medieval belief, that one, about those two languages). So if you want some bad effects like cursing, then english is the one?

I'd be more inclined to use a barbaric tongue for cursing - it definitely adds to the gravitas if you can. I've added a link to the Ouranian Barbaric dictionary below:

Ouranian Barbaric Dictionary

As for Latin being angelic, have you considered looking into Enochian? You may enjoy it - absolutely fascinating topic for people interested in linguistics. I wouldn't recommend trying to turn it into a viable magickal system on your own, gods know that Dee and Kelley had a hard enough time doing just that (and were actually advised not to by the source), but if you align yourself with something like the teachings of the Golden Dawn you would get to see it in action. [thumbup]

[Bluebeard]

Latin is considered the "pure" and "holy" language, for "good" work. English is considered to be the unclean, foul language (medieval belief, that one, about those two languages). So if you want some bad effects like cursing, then english is the one?

I'd be more inclined to use a barbaric tongue for cursing - it definitely adds to the gravitas if you can. I've added a link to the Ouranian Barbaric dictionary below:

Ouranian Barbaric Dictionary

As for Latin being angelic, have you considered looking into Enochian? You may enjoy it - absolutely fascinating topic for people interested in linguistics. I wouldn't recommend trying to turn it into a viable magickal system on your own, gods know that Dee and Kelley had a hard enough time doing just that (and were actually advised not to by the source), but if you align yourself with something like the teachings of the Golden Dawn you would get to see it in action. [thumbup]

Thanks for the link and info. Even though i get along with english just fine, especially since it is like the universal language or something, i am going to do some minor studying on that language.

Enochian? Angelic magic? Supposedly John Dee and Edward Kelly, that alchemist with the red grave dust stunt and black mirror thing-communicates with angels? Nah, never interested in that. Besides, instead of the archangels of the 4 cardinal directions, or the angels in general, i prefer their much older, asian counterparts, the 4 legendary beasts (with color, direction, element, planet/metal/herb/human organ associations, etc) and the assembly of heavenly warrior deities. Plus, my work on the elements and/or alchemy is not exactly western in style or preference. Black mirror though, especially obsidian one, can be a potent item; Mayan culture as source.

Generally, even though i am european myself, i am very fond ONLY of northern ways (runes and other belief systems i do not feel comfortable of revealing at this point at least), even though i am not in the north and then again, i found great support and utility from eastern paths. Undisputed truth is that both in real life and in fantasy, always, "magic" is "lored" to have come from the east. Like many other things; paper money, banking system, porcelain, silk, etc.