The Heroine's Journey

[magari]

Creating this thread to collect some research I'll be doing soon.

As of right now its my opinion that The Hero's Journey lends itself strictly to that aspect of humanity which is masculine.

In my opinion there are obvious challenges along the path that require a males perspective to overcome, and then having overcome this challenge, a male's perspective is refined by the experience of his actions.

In my opinion these challenges differ greatly for women not only in how they are approached, but how they are understood and overcome. The lessons learned are not the same as a man's who's approach can come from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Examples to follow, but I'm looking for a story for that aspect of humanity which is feminine.

In my opinion humanity is a living, breathing, duality, and while everything I've experienced and learned agrees with the "oneness" of the universe and that gender fails to exist among particular vibrations, we are still human and still seek to successfully procreate and thrive by (mathematically) randomly combining the two aspects of ourselves to create the future for all of humanity.

2 aspects that are practically opposites of each other. The realized male perspective being described as "Nature" and the realized female perspective as "Nurture".

In my opinion the current perspective regarding The Hero's Journey is designed to fully realize that "Nature" perspective. In the end we all come together in that "oneness" that is gender neutral, but it seems obvious to me that The Hero's Journey begins from the "Nature" perspective and has challenges specific to the vision that comes from looking at the world through the eyes of a man in a man's world.

I can easily obtain unity of the masculine and feminine energies within myself and see the world through the eyes of a man or woman from where I currently stand. However, this was not an easy task in the beginning and I don't live in a world where "Nature" and "Nurture" has found balance. Therefore I must constantly confide in that part of myself which is fully realized and beneficial to the community.

When the enemy is at the gates it is my fully realized male aspect that responds appropriately, efficiently, effectively, without hesitation to the satisfaction of the entire community without upsetting any balance within myself. Its a lot easier when you have a penis. Your biological makeup is designed for it.

However this puts me in a unique position as a member of modern society. Personally I feel like a monster surrounded by pretty pretty princes and princesses. My desire for action leaves me looking impatient. My desire to provide and protect leaves me looking insensitive. This is not something I often discuss because I don't believe in complaining about something you have no control over (whining).

I accept the way of the world and understand the role I am to play within our society. My friends are many and as close as brothers. Through my brother's I interact with the sisters, because while I am admired and looked up to by many men, the women keep their distance, almost subconsciously it seems, due to my strong familiarity with "Nature" (The evil in the world).

Not all women keep their distance though, and while spiritual maturity tends to come with life experience, it is a very rare thing nonetheless.

I have been fortunate enough to run into a few of these women. They see me immediately for what I am and are very careful not to include me with the rest of their experiences with men. They cater to my "Nature" perspective when it serves them, allowing me to "be a man" when a man is needed and I rightfully concede to them when the "Nurture" perspective is required.

The harmony achieved is glorious and the potential of a fully realized Man with a fully realized Woman I will argue is greater than any individual alone.

Therefore I seek the Heroine's Journey. I seek to understand as much as my penis allows. The goal is to see the journey in the world around me, through the lives of my sisters (fellow human beings without a penis) and learn to recognize it in an individual. Thereby, hopefully, assisting me in finding the sisters who are capable of handling fully realized men.

I'm open to the possibility that everything I know is false, that the story of feminine energy being realized may not take a shape similar to The Hero's Journey, that The Hero's Journey is a more modern creation based on an intensely patriarchal western history, and that women may not have something similar.... yet.

[palindrom]

When a "nurturing" female is going into protection-mode she will be very "natural" in her fending off the enemy.

When a "natural" male has a plan he wants to stick to, he will ve very "nurturing" in seeing his project grow.

I honestly don't think these two words can do the gender-difference justice...

...i have amused myself with re-writing some of the norse myths, changing every person's, and animal's, gender... I had been looking for a female heroine with whom i'd like to identify, and odin as a woman quite fits that bill [thumbup]
Actually I don't really think the myths should be read exoterically, relating to the outer world, but strictly esoterically, as relating to energetic streams and pathways.

But i was seriously fed up with the roles i was/am offered to fill as a woman, so i played around a bit and it was quite insightful for me, actually... Perhaps you could do the same with a story, and tell us here what it did to your role-ideas?

...sonebody told me once that the "male" way is to open the chakras from root to crown (also the magic way), and the female way (the mystic way) is to open them 4-7-1-3-5-6-2 (beginning with the heart).
This might relate to what you call natural (root chakra) and nurturing (heart chakra), but it seems more to be a distinction as to which way you go on your spiritual journey than to how you are incarnated...

The sexual differences and the identification with them seems to be seriously overstressed in our society.
My guess is that the true energetic differences between male and female incarnated beings are much more subtle than fighting or nurturing...

I wish i was able to put it in words, but then, i'm still ar the very beginning of this specific energetical journey...

Have a good day : )

Pali

[magari]

http://fangirlblog.com/2012/04/the-hero ... oesnt-fit/

In large part because of the historical focus of Campbell’s analysis, his model for the Hero’s Journey describes a character arc that is built for male heroes, emphasizing what are familiar and traditional male choices and male values. In Campbell’s monomyth, for example, the hero often leaves his home and his family behind to undertake his adventure, sometimes abandoning his wife and children for years in service of his quest. Or the hero often toils by himself, waging a lone struggle to conquer his adversary. Similarly, the classical Hero’s Journey often involves not just courage or bravery, but a self-aggrandizing pursuit of personal glory and an approach to confrontation and conflict that is often militant, aggressive, or macho. The hero also often is motivated to seek reward or validation from authority figures such as the gods, a king, or his father.

Of course, these sorts of choices and values also may appear in stories with a strong female heroine as the central protagonist – but many such stories will have a far different nature, based in the different choices faced by women and the different values they often possess.

Because a strong female heroine experiencing a mythic coming of age tale is the core of the Heroine’s Journey, the model should be designed to readily include many elements that reflect iconic choices faced by young women and the different values that often animate women’s lives compared to men. Choices about when to have children, or whether to have children, can be at the very heart of self-identity for many female characters in a way that often is not the case for their male counterparts. Choices about how to balance work and home, career and family, are defining challenges for many women’s lives, in way that is not the case for many men. Similarly, portraying a heroine as valuing her family, friends, lovers, and other relationships is often critically important to writing her in a credible and relatable way. Heroines also frequently undertake their journeys as part of a team, in contrast to the iconic lone male hero. A heroine’s objectives often are different, as well, such as protective or nurturing motivations or placing the safety of others above her own survival or glory.

Certain parts of the monomyth, for example, are inherent in the basic concept of an heroic coming of age tale, regardless of gender. The heroic character, male or female, must be drawn into the adventure, transformed in some manner into an epic champion, struggle against obstacles and threats, and either perish in the quest or pass through it to emerge forever changed. Some parts of the Hero’s Journey framework encapsulating these ideas also fit the Heroine’s Journey model quite effectively. Other parts, including aspects noted above, do not. Future posts in the Heroine’s Journey blog series will explore and discuss these similarities and differences in more detail.

In the modern era, by contrast, the focus shifts to humanity. The examples are legion across numerous disciplines: democracy and the will of the people replaces the divine right of kings in defining political legitimacy; the philosophy of reason and science supplant theology in understanding morality, society, and the natural world. In storytelling, the iconic struggle changes, too. The hero or heroine faces fundamental challenges presented in notions like free will, a pluralism of religious and moral views of right and wrong, and personal responsibility for our own choices. Rather than faith in an external power, it is often the heroine’s faith in herself, or lack of it, that determines whether she succeeds or fails. And often the hero triumphs not by fulfilling the expectations of others, but by changing the rules and winning on his own terms.

Really well written article.

[magari]

When a "nurturing" female is going into protection-mode she will be very "natural" in her fending off the enemy.

When a "natural" male has a plan he wants to stick to, he will ve very "nurturing" in seeing his project grow.

I honestly don't think these two words can do the gender-difference justice...

To me Nature and Nurture are synonymous with black and white, night and day, sun and moon, male and female. The oneness of duality allows for both to exist or have the potential to exist everywhere, including individuals.

...i have amused myself with re-writing some of the norse myths, changing every person's, and animal's, gender... I had been looking for a female heroine with whom i'd like to identify, and odin as a woman quite fits that bill [thumbup]

Everyone is an individual and we all gravitate towards the myth that suits us best.

Actually I don't really think the myths should be read exoterically, relating to the outer world, but strictly esoterically, as relating to energetic streams and pathways.

Perhaps not, however the power of culture and language is undeniable and to ignore its effects on who we are as individuals is committing spiritual suicide in my opinion. Consider the stories we have told to entertain ourselves around a campfire at first and how those stories evolved into theater, movies, and other forms of modern culture (Stories told over twitter and facebook). Then consider how the characters "people" in these stories evolved over time as well and you begin to see the relationship between humanity and its myth.

This is another example of the "connected" nature of the universe or one of a few hermetic principals.

But i was seriously fed up with the roles i was/am offered to fill as a woman, so i played around a bit and it was quite insightful for me, actually... Perhaps you could do the same with a story, and tell us here what it did to your role-ideas?

I attempt to empathize with every possible individual or character, fictional or whatever.

The sexual differences and the identification with them seems to be seriously overstressed in our society.
My guess is that the true energetic differences between male and female incarnated beings are much more subtle than fighting or nurturing...

In my experience energy precedes the material world. The landscape of "energy" existed long before the material world and has provided an opportunity for matter to "grow" into and out of existence. That being said, on the spectrum of possibilities, men and women are incredibly similar, however we differ enough to be physically opposites. The fact that humanity depends on this difference for survival provokes me to explore it further.

Thank you for your words.

[magari]

Currently reading...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Heroines-Jour ... 0877734852

[magari]

A little over halfway through the reading.

I met a woman today a year older than myself. An ambitious woman from Thailand who works as a manager in IT. She demonstrates aspects of the feminine and the goddess is strong in her.

Her generosity is impressive, her devotion to her relationships is a rarity. She recognizes the man in me and promotes the woman in herself. In her opinion most failed relationships are between people who attempt to fill missing pieces of themselves. She believes a successful relationship and a successful family depends on two *whole* individuals coming together to create something better than themselves.

I'm taking this as a sign that I'm on the right track.

As for the reading I'm really enjoying it. Written by a woman who counsels other women (most very successful in their careers) and has included stories of her clients in the writing. The insight into the minds of powerful women is priceless. The perspectives shared have been enlightening for me as a man who obviously doesn't experience the trials these women face in the same way at all. A great example is the incredible amount of value women seem to place on all of their relationships, big and small, where it seems men tend to place greater value on something else depending on the situation, not often is the relationship as important or more important than the immediate outcome.

[RoseRed]

Nature and nurture are intertwined in us all. Sure, males defend but the skills that you have you were trained in - that's nurture. Ever see a mama-bear go on a rampage to protect her own?

[magari]

Nature and nurture are intertwined in us all. Sure, males defend but the skills that you have you were trained in - that's nurture. Ever see a mama-bear go on a rampage to protect her own?

I'm not denying this. I'm simply observing the differences. The world is obviously not black and white.

I'm willing to argue that if these differences were not important, humanity would procreate asexually.

However the future of the race depends on sexual reproduction, therefore I think its wise to understand the differences and be able to recognize them in ourselves as well as the people around us.

The book describes many women who have obtained success by patriarchal definition; CEOs of fortune 500 companies. They got there by playing the game created by men who place less value on relationships and more value on the bottom line. These women ignore the feminine within and end up incredibly unhappy, usually with health issues, and often quit work and family to the surprise of everyone around them. Through clinical and spiritual psychology the author has realized that these women, while embracing the masculine within, ignored or suppressed the feminine.

As the world view begins to shift from Nature to Nurture the Heroine's Journey is going to become more important than ever as women in power (rising through the ranks of a patriarchal society) attempt to bring back the goddess as a good influence over society.

Last year in my management class we had a female guest speaker who had worked her way up through the ranks in the oil industry out of Texas. She became a member of the "good ol boys" and while she was financially successful and healthy physically, she awoke every day more and more depressed. One day she read an article about "Woman Leadership" and realized that she was not being true to herself. From that day forward she began speaking to corporations and universities about what it means to be a Man or a Woman in the work place. How men and women differ in their values and ideas surrounding leadership and following.

I asked her that day if she had heard of the Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell, she excitedly said "Yes, its great!". Then I asked her if it applied more to men than women and in her opinion women could use it, but then retracted her statement saying that there were some parts that she couldn't identify with. Then she restated that its obvious the hero's journey was written and perceived by a man compared to a woman. I then asked her if she had found a suitable replacement for women and she said no.

This was last year. Maureen Maddock supposedly wrote her book in 1990.

Nature and Nurture to me is like Yin and Yan. Both obviously exist within the other. Both exist as a part of the whole. However the differences between the two can't be ignored.

I would argue that a mother bear uses her knowledge of Nature to decide what action is necessary to protect her cub from another predator. Violence is often the answer.

I would argue that a mother bear uses her knowledge of Nurture to decide whether or not the cub is hungry, or cold and taking the proper action to provide comfort.

There is a very good reason little boys get a lot more out of violence than little girls.
There is a very good reason little girls would rather serve their friends tea and play house.

I'm speaking generally of course.

Rose:

The last time we spoke I was attempting to get *you* to look at the bigger picture, begging you to forget the details for a moment. Now it seems our roles have switched.

[RoseRed]

Funny how that happens, huh?

You make a lot of good points. When life settles down I might just pm you and ask you the title of this book. I'm looking forward to some downtime, hopefully, in the near future.

[magari]

The amazon.com link is above.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I don't know, but at least as far as comedy if you want some immersive gender psychedelia - Iliza Shlesinger hands down. She seems to comment on a girl's world the way Dane Cook comments on a guy's world.

[magari]

Funny you mention her.

I saw her bit the other day for the first time. The pinterest bit was pretty good.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I was just checking Esther Povitsky's material - she's funny but damn is she dark!

I kinda think what you're talking about is coming, just that it's still maybe a decade or so from having it's full public self-confidence (meaning major box-office hits along the lines you're talking about).

I also think it's a WAY better world when people are out front, know what each other are about, and know how to navigate it instead of mutually stubbing toes. Better workforce relations, means of showing one another appreciation actually meeting protocol both ways, a heck of a lot more learned about life in both directions, and far fewer shibboleths and masonic handshakes both ways when it comes to relationships (which everyone stresses themselves stupid trying to anticipate).

[ultimafool]

Hail & greetings all!

Based on my current understanding, I would have to somewhat echo palindrom's post.

There's the Western Hermetic/Kabbalistic interpretation derived from the Tetragrammaton that explains the journey as being a metophorical/allegorical tale of the redemption or re-spiritualization of the material (maternal) kingdom via the higher spiritual knowledge. A great example of this is in the tale of Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty herself represents the dormant and "un-spiritualized" physical world and the final "heh" in YHVH.

The prince, representing the airy knowledge and the "vauv" of YHVH passes this occult knowledge onto the physical realm via the kiss, symbolic of the whispering of secrets. Jesus supposedly "kissed" Mary Magdalene in one of those non-canon books I can't be arsed to look up at the moment.

Several examples of the reversal of these gender roles spring to mind: the tale of the frog what becomes a prince when kissed by a princess. More modern examples I can think of at the moment: the excellent film by Guillermo Del Toro, Pan's Labyrinth. Miyazaki's Spirited Away, which invovles a female protagonist literally gaining knowledge from the spirit world in order to free her parents who became prisoners of the spirits because of their carnal desires. The Wizard of Oz since Dorothy must help her four (YHVH?) male friends realize their dormant qualities. And maybe Pinocchio since it's a female fairy from the stars what grants sentience to the inert titular puppet.

Hope that helps!

[magari]

Finished the reading.

Overall I enjoyed it, worth the 10 bucks on kindle.

It was very inspiring and showed me a few perspectives I don't think I've ever considered.

However, I still feel incomplete. I think this is due to the overall message being incomplete. I don't blame this on the author, but possibly on the perspective that this is a newer manifestation in the world, while the creation of Joseph Campbell's was something built on far more generations of masculine development.

It was well written and every word was valuable, but I feel like the perspective might have been a little limited. I think, like every new idea I come across, I have to experience it in the world around me to truly understand.

Its not hard to find the feminine perspective growing in this world, however I have a hard time recognizing something properly developed. I'm interpreting this as a reflection of self and obviously need to do some rekindling of the feminine within.

Oddly, I feel as if I've had a eureka moment and at the same time, like I've known all along. Its possible something has come full circle.

Mountain Lions, Time, Growth of the Feminine, relationships, music, family, friends.

3 and 4 make 7

The Chariot

Nike

[magari]

Nike was the charioteer in the Titan War.

That myth spawns out of Minerva

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minerva

A creation story

Fearing that their child would grow stronger than him and rule the Heavens in his place, Jupiter swallowed Metis whole. The titaness forged weapons and armor for her child while within the father-god, and the constant pounding and ringing gave him a headache. To relieve the pain, Vulcan used a hammer to split Jupiter's head and, from the cleft, Minerva emerged, whole, adult, and bearing her mother's weapons and armor.

The Owl.....

The last time I saw Owls.....

Minerva was part of the triad.

4 (Nike) becomes 3 (Minerva). Going backwards now in myth and time.

Patron Goddess of Wisdom (Education)

Minerva on the Medal of Honor.

Statue of Liberty.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Fearing that their child would grow stronger than him and rule the Heavens in his place, Jupiter swallowed Metis whole. The titaness forged weapons and armor for her child while within the father-god, and the constant pounding and ringing gave him a headache. To relieve the pain, Vulcan used a hammer to split Jupiter's head and, from the cleft, Minerva emerged, whole, adult, and bearing her mother's weapons and armor.

It almost seems like when the Greeks and Romans spoke of a father god 'swallowing' it's children they meant something closer to them drawing the child back into their mind or re-integrating them, perhaps by force.

4 (Nike) becomes 3 (Minerva). Going backwards now in myth and time.

Patron Goddess of Wisdom (Education)

Minerva on the Medal of Honor.

Statue of Liberty.

The last is a profound suggestion, I'd actually heard a different suggestion - that is we have in New York harbor a full reconstruction of the Colossus of Rhodes, which is a statue of Apollo. If it is Minerva instead I'd love to read more from that source to see if they make a better case.

On a side note with the Medal of Honor something that caught my interest when studying it's application. Both the Medal of Honor and the Sherrif's badge are inverse stars - one a pentagram the other a heptagram. When I look at the Medal of Honor I see that it in an inverse pentagram you have an obverse pentagon - much like the Pentagon building in DC is an obverse, not an inverse. I wonder now if the meaning or value of the stars themselves may be more referential to the orientation of the polygon in their center. If that's the case it may be that it's the inverse pentagram that's Martial and that the obverse pentagram banishes aggression and unwanted energies specifically because it's anti-Martial and takes one out of phase with them from the other end.

(I take back part of the above - the Pentagon building really isn't that well north-south oriented; though I still for the inverse pentagram/heptagram am toying with the same question).

[magari]

Great Horned Owl
This Owl is a fierce protector.
It is the lunar opposite of the Red-Tailed Hawk (who represents the Sun).
Gives the ability to adapt to constant changing environments.
The harbinger of Spring.

The owl sees in the dark.

The Hermit.

[magari]

Fearing that their child would grow stronger than him and rule the Heavens in his place, Jupiter swallowed Metis whole. The titaness forged weapons and armor for her child while within the father-god, and the constant pounding and ringing gave him a headache. To relieve the pain, Vulcan used a hammer to split Jupiter's head and, from the cleft, Minerva emerged, whole, adult, and bearing her mother's weapons and armor.

It almost seems like when the Greeks and Romans spoke of a father god 'swallowing' it's children they meant something closer to them drawing the child back into their mind or re-integrating them, perhaps by force.

4 (Nike) becomes 3 (Minerva). Going backwards now in myth and time.

Patron Goddess of Wisdom (Education)

Minerva on the Medal of Honor.

Statue of Liberty.

The last is a profound suggestion, I'd actually heard a different suggestion - that is we have in New York harbor a full reconstruction of the Colossus of Rhodes, which is a statue of Apollo. If it is Minerva instead I'd love to read more from that source to see if they make a better case.

On a side note with the Medal of Honor something that caught my interest when studying it's application. Both the Medal of Honor and the Sherrif's badge are inverse stars - one a pentagram the other a heptagram. When I look at the Medal of Honor I see that it in an inverse pentagram you have an obverse pentagon - much like the Pentagon building in DC is an obverse, not an inverse. I wonder now if the meaning or value of the stars themselves may be more referential to the orientation of the polygon in their center. If that's the case it may be that it's the inverse pentagram that's Martial and that the obverse pentagram banishes aggression and unwanted energies specifically because it's anti-Martial and takes one out of phase with them from the other end.

I avoid chasing conspiracy/illuminati theories. They generally don't promote what is required for humanity to work together in this day and age. These people tend to ignore the growth and prosperity the "system" has bestowed upon humanity. Nothing happens outside the will of the universe in this man's opinion.

[magari]

The statue of liberty comment was born out of the image on the Air Force's Medal of Honor.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I didn't offer any Illuminati conspiracies.

The Statue of Liberty as the Colossus of Rhodes was MP Hall.

The Medal of Honor is indeed an inverse pentagram.

Our country was founded by Masons, the Ari-style ToL in the streets of Washington is pretty well given. That and there's a Youtube vid called 'Secrets Hidden in Plain Sight', made by a guy who's an architect by trade, where he doesn't touch any of the hype - he just reports on what's there. It seems far less like a conspiracy and much more like people have been asking the same questions we have for thousands of years, at a certain time had to very much do so in private, and tried out their experiments to see if things like Pythagorean solids and polygons worked by putting the symbols out there to road-test it.

Also the suggestion that the US would be Roger Bacon's 'New Atlantis' actualized seems to have a lot of merit based on not only all the symbol play that out founders worked on but also a lot of occult authorities like MP Hall and Paul Foster Case who've evaluated the matter.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

The other thing worth noting - the old occult/masonic 'New World Order' and the modern Illuminati conspiracy 'New World Order' are two very different things. The first is freedom from tyranny, government set up on what's as close to cosmic laws as possible (in our case republican Democracy), pretty much a government that works for the people not against them and where ideas win by their merits rather than being destroyed by the old Masonic triumbrant enemy of the crown, tiara, and torch. That, in a lot of ways, they did actually achieve albeit since the 20th century it's been progressively eroding.