Atheist Occultists

[Atzmuth]

If you are alone... where did you come from?

My mother? Circumstances that were dependent on my birth? There are plenty of models of reality and consciousness that don't involve gods.

And where did she come from?

My point isnt that your power comes from god, but that it is a gift from those who came before you.

Then who created the God? Even if a human needs a creator a being like a God sure has a creator! And the chain goes on and on. Explain this...

[magari]

Like I said above....

My point is not that your power comes from God.

Did you read me correctly?

[Atzmuth]

I dont think time moves. Past is dead, and future doesnt exist. What you will have at the end of the day will still be 'today' so I will try to work something out of this. And Gos as a source is not count as a God becouse source is not something that lives and has freewill rather something that we use. We, who has freewill. So for me source=material, not God.

[magari]

One more time....

My point is *not* that your power comes from God.

My point is that it comes from that which created you.

Whatever that is to you... Fine.

Time is an entirely different conversation .

[Atzmuth]

I didnt state something opposing to your statement at my last comment?!

[Nahemah]

I have nothing of value to add to this topic except...super cute undercut Nahemah! I've always wanted to try one, but my hair is nearly down to my waist at this point and I can't shake the irrational fear I might have an odd looking skull...

Thanks, it's been very liberating for me. Couldn't hide behind the hair curtains anymore, so scary at first. Now I'm loving it, but I have fluffy sides now it's growing in, lol. Gonny cut it in again soon. NO to the fluffy, lol. [grin]

My point is that it comes from that which created you.

So we are no more than the sum of our parts?

Dependent upon the past for achievements in the present?

Nope. My experiences have shaped me into who I am and the power I have comes from this and from what went before me + me + what is around me + on and on and on and in and out and around, energy...constantly evolving, turning and changing, now there is a dynamic I can truly get behind. [wink]

In a nutshell, it's entirely possbile to be an Atheistic Occultist, despite Theistic dislikes for the idea or their lack of understanding of other people's philosophies and paradigms.

I have a high hit rate in my workings and I've helped others out successfully too many times to mention, over the course of my time on the planet so far.

I do indeed exist and my continued existance and magickal successes are not dependant on whether others believe in me or not, or whether they are accepting of me either. [greensmile]

IMMV and meh for the naysayers. [thumbup]

[magari]

My point is simple.

Im not talking about God or anything theistic in my opinion.

Im simply saying that in order for you to exist something had to happen. That something is the foundation from which you grow.

Your power came through that foundation into you.

Its up to you to decide how to use it.

Im trying to understand how this conflicts with your perspective Nahemah.

[magari]

I should also add that you can choose to use this power or not. To develope it or not. To be a victim of your environment or the victor.

[Desecrated]

Im not talking about God or anything theistic in my opinion. CHECK

Im simply saying that in order for you to exist something had to happen. That something is the foundation from which you grow. CHECK

Your power came through that foundation into you. CROSS

I would say partly yes to that last one. But it almost sounds like you are saying that that is all of it, like my own individual will is just the results of me being born. I would like to think that chance, random events and at least some pure logical thought is behind my choices.

I'm not arguing that being born a human doesn't give you human traits. But life would be insanely boring if that was the only thing I could become with this life.

Although this is just an opinion. I fully understand the argument of determinism, I simply don't believe in it myself.
Heck, for what it is worth, I'm also considering solipsism as a possible truth. It would make so much more sense if everything in this universe was just another fantasy of mine.

[Nahemah]

Hmm, I'm still not really getting your point then.

Im simply saying that in order for you to exist something had to happen. That something is the foundation from which you grow.

Your power came through that foundation into you.

No one is born powerful, quite the opposite in fact. We are born with potential and with certain inherited traits, genetic memory and so on, but whether or not these can develop is dependent on various other factors, both within and without ourselves.

You can post all day and night about 'source' and 'foundation' and call that power, but we'll still be talking at cross purposes.

Why not just be straight with what you mean to say instead of making suggestions and comments that read and come across as vague and mysterious?

Cross posted with you Desecrated, sorry. [thumbup]

[Atzmuth]

I dont believe this world is a fantasy of mine. If it was like that we wouldnt be doing this conversation and I would be slaying a demon or commanding troops. This is not a dream. If it was there would be no pain unless you are a masoshist.

[Desecrated]

I dont believe this world is a fantasy of mine. If it was like that we wouldnt be doing this conversation and I would be slaying a demon or commanding troops. This is not a dream. If it was there would be no pain unless you are a masoshist.

No, no, Not your world.
It's mine.
I haven't given any demon slaying abilities to any of you yet. You are just here for entertainment until I get tired of debating what I'm reading and need another sort of input.

[Atzmuth]

I dont believe this world is a fantasy of mine. If it was like that we wouldnt be doing this conversation and I would be slaying a demon or commanding troops. This is not a dream. If it was there would be no pain unless you are a masoshist.

No, no, Not your world.
It's mine.
I haven't given any demon slaying abilities to any of you yet. You are just here for entertainment until I get tired of debating what I'm reading and need another sort of input.

Well Its senseless we dont live as you wish? You just percieve life as you wish. Those are diffrent things. As we can also do the same to you in your point of view.

[magari]

Hmm, I'm still not really getting your point then.

Im simply saying that in order for you to exist something had to happen. That something is the foundation from which you grow.

Your power came through that foundation into you.

No one is born powerful, quite the opposite in fact. We are born with potential and with certain inherited traits, genetic memory and so on, but whether or not these can develop is dependent on various other factors, both within and without ourselves.

You can post all day and night about 'source' and 'foundation' and call that power, but we'll still be talking at cross purposes.

Why not just be straight with what you mean to say instead of making suggestions and comments that read and come across as vague and mysterious?

Cross posted with you Desecrated, sorry. [thumbup]

Googling child prodigies gives me endless examples of people who are born with inherit power.

I thought I was being very clear. I'm not sure whats vague.

We all begin somewhere. That somewhere depends on that which came before us.

What part of that is vague?

[Draco20]

Then who created the God? Even if a human needs a creator a being like a God sure has a creator! And the chain goes on and on. Explain this...

God could have caused Itself to exist. But if we're considering concepts such as infinity and timelessness, does the question even makes sense?

Still, I think this theological issue stems from considering 'God' as an entity external to the Universe (e.g Classical Monotheism).

IMO, the Universe is the physical, tangible manifestation of 'God'. And if we consider the cosmos to be infinite, timeless and self-sustaining, then here's an answer. The Universe is therefore not a creation per see (though Divine consciousness is likely the driving force) but God Itself.

[Atzmuth]

Universe is not a being therefore God is not the Universe. Plus Umiverse is not unlimited it is just expanding day by day. Those two are diffrent things.

[corvidus]

Then who created the God? Even if a human needs a creator a being like a God sure has a creator! And the chain goes on and on. Explain this...

God could have caused Itself to exist. But if we're considering concepts such as infinity and timelessness, does the question even makes sense?

Yes it makes sense. Occult Science, aka alchemy, is the study of the reincrudation of Spirit/Life/God. Creation is the finite processes of solve and coagula stuck in an infinite loop.

If God creates himself (out of Nothing into Something), and if as above, so below: Humans must have created themselves at some point.


But to contribute to the thread..
In my opinion, and after personally going through a sort of atheist phase, I think Atheism is a necessary step to shed the old belief systems we were taught growing up in order to begin finding out the truth behind reality.

Some people get stuck because all the new possibilities really excites the intellectual Ego.

[Atzmuth]

It is not for Occult to reveal the truth about the universe. Psychics and Philosophy will do this. However I guess we cannot reach a clear and %100 true conclusion from an internet forum. We may talk about the philosophical paradigms but solely philosophy wont solve this problem as solely psychics wont.

[Nahemah]

On prodigies:

Sorry to quote myself, but...

No one is born powerful, quite the opposite in fact. We are born with potential and with certain inherited traits, genetic memory and so on, but whether or not these can develop is dependent on various other factors, both within and without ourselves.

This applies.

Hothousing is subject to privelege and/ or opportunity and so many prodigious children have been intensely coached to excel in a narrow field of study for long periods of time, that they become socially isolated and many show traits of autism spectrum disorders in adulthood. The internet is littered with the stories of those who've fallen by the wayside, in terms of material success, wealth and fame/ reknown, at least. There are more of these folk than the 'successful' or famous ones and many of the kids go onto adulthood no longer able to excel in their subjects, as intelligence is not exclusively dependent on intellectual capability alone and they struggle with other aspects of mind and so on...Some are happier now, in their 'failure', but many resent their parents/ guardians/mentors for stifling their creatviity and social bonding/ learning. emotional intelligence.

There is plenty of evidence for the above on a google search too.

Perhaps I simply define 'power' differently to you Magari?

Power is nothing without the ability to control and knowledge is nothing without understanding.

Learning is a lifelong process too, we are not fixed in our abilities at birth.

Inherent traits are not all that we are made of either and without adequate opportunity for work and development, study and growth, even the most brilliant of minds will not thrive long enough to shine. Nature and nurture belong together in this matter.

Thesis, anithesis, synthesis.

[magari]

I guess my point is that priveledge and tradition that empowers individuals to use their inherit power properly is something that is built before a person arrives in this world.

Its not necessary for success, but makes the process less painful for most.

Rich people problems are a matter of refinement and tuning.

I also argue that just because your father abandoned you and your mother was a crackhore that gives you no reason to assume you did it all on your own.

Thats the ego talking. Just because society failed *you* doesnt mean its not working.

Not pointing fingers of course, just talking.

[Atzmuth]

It got deep for me. Can you guys sum it up a bit? As it gets complex I cant get into the topic myself.

[Nahemah]

...I also argue that just because your father abandoned you and your mother was a crackhore that gives you no reason to assume you did it all on your own.

Thats the ego talking. Just because society failed *you* doesnt mean its not working.

Not pointing fingers of course, just talking.

What?

And I'm not seeking to subjegate my ego, are you?

The society bit, is this a sweeping generalisation, a distraction technique/drama generator or a veiled go at someone here?

I'm a bit bemused by the example and it's relevance to the discussion at hand.

And I don't think a healthy ego is a bad thing to have, either, especially in an urban environment, like the one I live in. [geek2]

Yey for the individual, for knowing where you and others end and where I begin and you begin and end and so on... [greensmile]

I quite like myself too, though I can be a bit of a div on occasions. [rolleyes]

This is becoming a bit reductionistic and circular. For me, no gods, no master, for others different, so what.

It's only an issue if folk start forcing their reality tunnels/worldviews/ perceptions onto others who don't share them.

[magari]

Like I said, I wasnt pointing fingers.

Go back to my first response to this topic.

I was attempting to destroy the assumption: "I am alone".

Its an incredibly destructive perspective in my opinion. Empowering at first, but unsustainable.

The ego is entirely necessary, but cannot survive alone.

[Atzmuth]

Its getting out of the topic...

[magari]

Its getting out of the topic...

If you say so