Spirituality: Asceticism or Power?

[Thaumaturgic Theorist]

I admit, I'm torn in how I want to approach my new forays into magickal spirituality:

Option one, to use it to gain everything I want in this life, to make myself greater, powerful, worthwhile, everything I want and can do what I want.

Option two, to practice as a modern ascetic, to deprive and hurt myself until I'm as miserable as possible without actually committing suicide while casting for world improvement.


A quick google search however, revealed I'm simply too bad to actually adhere to the second method. The sheer ugliness and isolation of that kind of life is too much to even think about. Zero contact with people (ie no internet...I've never been able to form connections in real life), only one set of clothes, starving myself, no protection from heat or cold or other people...I mean, I know I'm a bad person who deserves pain; I want to be miserable, but I also question the point of it. I only have this one life, why not use it to elevate my wretched self, right? Do stuff I want to do. But I don't deserve it. I deserve to live in a motel eating one meal a week with zero internet access or human contact, like one person I read about. But I don't want it. Because I'm bad. But at the same time, there's the tiny possibilty the ascetics have it wrong and their action is pointless outside of personal fulfillment....though I doubt it.

After all, after a little more reading, I don't want to find any sort of enlightenment - I want to be disciplined, better than or equal to everyone else, while also punishing myself for existing. But that there, points right again the the "power" desire. It's not to much of a stress to my more current experiments in using magickal techniques to try to make myself perfect: more attractive, more intelligent, more competent, to acquire money to fund the life I want. Certainly, it's all more tangible and feels more worthwhile.

So...which path does this lovely forum think I should take?

[LoneWolf]

Hey,

What I will say is my personal opinion and should be treated as such.

They say both paths lead to heaven. You can starve and meditate for 20 days or take everything you can to feel as good as you can till you explode in ecstasy.

But, I don't think you can elevate yourself while disrespecting life itself, and more concretelly yourself.

I believe that in order to attain illumination/evolve in life, or move closer to it you can't feel bad where you are now. Pain might hurt, but stating that you are here to suffer or not be at perfect harmony and ease is not a frame of mind from which you will start your quest with selfishless and pure acceptance and joy for existence itself. It's OK to feel bad, but it is not to feel bad of having to feel bad. Makes sense? Pain and plesure are programmed into your brain to make you do some stuff rather than another. Acknowledge it, use it to get weight off your shoulders.

I also believe that illumination/growing requires letting go of oneself till the point of just merging with the universe and going with the flow in the purest sense. Therefore, feeling as if this place is hell and that there's no way out but to suffer for the sake of it won't let you let go of yourself and follow the waves. In that context it would be very dumb to let go, right?

Shifting thought for me was acknowledging that all I had suffered before had a reason. I learned and saw many things, and I also saw what I really wanted.

Regarding your aproach,The first option can be put in two ways:

i) You are flawed but have the tools to become as perfect as you can picture it in your mind in order to live the most fulfilling life and have a good time because, fuck, you are here!

ii) You are exactly how you must be. Perfect. Your will to change is part of life and what separates(logistics) state 1 (your current situation of seemingly self hatred and unlovingness for the universe) and state 2 (your fulfilling life of harmony).

The second option I think requieres complete trust and pure love for existence itself. You feel as if everything is perfect, therefore you don't have to force anything. You shift your habits and just "exist". Breathe. Eat what is necessary. It is not, however, a punishment. It is just an act of pure faith and understanding. Existence goes by itself, and you sit calm and enjoy the ride. Your will doesn't demand more abundance nor exciting experiences.

Imagine dettaching as much as possible from limitations, rational constructions, emotional patterns, trauma, phsyical impediments, etc, and just percieving your will as the road you travel upon as an atom of the whole absolute Universe. There's really little choice, is it? You just follow it and experience it. I don't believe that your true will is to suffer, for it would mean that you were wired oposite to the optimal, and that doesn't make sense. Maybe what makes you percieve it as such is all the trash listed above that you picked up in order to learn at the start of your journey.

How ever you percieve this life, I would opt to follow my will and have the most joyious life possible. We are here. What should be must be exciting for us in order to travel that path. This thing expands by itself. Watch nature, the trees; as above so below.

I will wrap this up by throwing at you a book recommendation I think you might find helpful and enjoy. It's about a boy seeking illumination that experiences these differents paths. He listens his call and becomes aestetic and starves, then experiences big abundance and even greed, etc. etc. It is "Siddharta" by Hermann Hesse. Easy read and not long. I hope you enjoy it and find it as useful as I did at the start of my quest.

Wish you well.

[corvidus]

I'm with lonewolf on this one. Both.

The plane we live on intricacy connects love and hate, God and the devil, etc and etc.

The perfect state, in my opinion, is androgynous. Both and neither. If the whole point of magic is to be like 'God' or your 'Higher Self', then I think this is the closest we come.

[chowderpope]

The Indian party mystic Osho used to talk about Zorba the Buddha. Both being detached from the world, but deeply involved in it as well. I think you can gain spiritual progress while practicing magick. I think ascetics should probably be really naturally drawn to that lifestyle. They probably need a deep inspiration to go and live that way. There's nothing wrong with living a full life and being spiritual at the same time.

[Daud]

I admit, I'm torn in how I want to approach my new forays into magickal spirituality:

Option one, to use it to gain everything I want in this life, to make myself greater, powerful, worthwhile, everything I want and can do what I want.

Option two, to practice as a modern ascetic, to deprive and hurt myself until I'm as miserable as possible without actually committing suicide while casting for world improvement.

Option three, take the middle way.

It's a false dichotomy, one that i fell into when i was a younger boy. My advice to you would be to have a higher purpose behind your magick, work for the benefit of others, but not be a Magi-nazi about using your powers to better your conditions once in a while. If selflessness is not your thing, there's no need to flagellate yourself.

TBH i've become number two, simply because as a Bodhisattva i see myself as completely dependant upon all other sentient beings, so the only reason i am here is for their benefit. Perhaps you should evaluate your insecurities and meditate on their emptiness. But i won't force my religion onto you, don't worry.

The advice i'd give you really, is to look within yourself. You will see turmoil, judging from your post. In order to come to terms with that turmoil i'd suggest embarking on some incredibly challenging journey, or meditative retreat. Discover yourself if you will, and abandon the opinions of others, and how they perceive you may effect your decision. I'm always willing to discuss such matters, so if you have any queries or want further advice PM me.

Good luck on your spiritual quest, mate.
[thumbup]

[Desecrated]

“The Buddha said, ‘I’ve discovered a new way to go,
and it’s not the path of asceticism,
and it’s not the path of sensory indulgence.
It’s the Middle Way…everything needs to be balanced.”

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Desecrated]

"Fair goes the dancing when the Sitar is tuned.

Tune us the Sitar neither high nor low,
And we will dance away the hearts of men.

But the string too tight breaks, and the music dies.

The string too slack has no sound, and the music dies.

There is a middle way.

Tune us the Sitar neither low nor high.
And we will dance away the hearts of men.”

[LoneWolf]

"Fair goes the dancing when the Sitar is tuned.

Tune us the Sitar neither high nor low,
And we will dance away the hearts of men.

But the string too tight breaks, and the music dies.

The string too slack has no sound, and the music dies.

There is a middle way.

Tune us the Sitar neither low nor high.
And we will dance away the hearts of men.”

Beautiful

[Caerdon]

"Fair goes the dancing when the Sitar is tuned.

Tune us the Sitar neither high nor low,
And we will dance away the hearts of men.

But the string too tight breaks, and the music dies.

The string too slack has no sound, and the music dies.

There is a middle way.

Tune us the Sitar neither low nor high.
And we will dance away the hearts of men.”

Beautiful

Yeah, Buddha did have a good way of looking at the world

As for the OP, I never saw the point of punishing yourself, especially doing so when you have done nothing to cause a punishment in the first place. It's not up to you to take on the sins of the world and their consequences, and it is not needed to make the world a better place.

The only thing you need to do is leave the world a better place than what you found it as, what you where born into.

You don't have to be a hero, you don't have to be a martyr. You live your life and add to it more than you take. That's all that you need to do.

Also, I'm not saying to avoid the consequences of your actions, you must accept them as they come, but you shouldn't search out others consequences as well. You'll end up destroying yourself, and how will you help make the world better if you do that?