Psychology (V.S.) Magick: "What is real(?)". ~

[Kami]

Look... I feel that magick is real - because of all of the things I have been through ever since I came to this forum, but... There is a part of me that stupidly listens to the opnions of others when it comes to magick outside of this forum. ~

I need yall, to help me formulate an argument that can alter my christian friend's belief about magick.

Can y'all help me(?)

My negative subconscious resistance is overpowering my ability to prove that magick exists - so I fail. ~

...

I asked a christian what they THOUGHT this scripture means:
|
"Jesus Curses a Fig Tree",
[18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
...
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
...
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”]

And their personal opinion was this;
|
"Only God has the magickal authority to manipulate reality as he sees fit, but 'really' what Jesus was trying to teach his disciples was that if they believed in themselves that they could accomplish anything that was physically possible for them.
...
All that they had to do was have no doubt in their hearts about their power to be able to overcome their negative mental programs.

Is this what Jesus was trying to teach(?)

Or was he truly trying to teach actual magick/alchemy(?)

...

If all the occult really is - is all about psychology then I'm fucking pissed that I wasted my time on this shit.

BECAUSE... I know I have the fucking power to change my life, I just don't fucking want to when it comes to ordinary means.

I want magick in my life and not some simple ass shit that anyone can accomplish... -_-

If there is no such thing as magick - I am done with all of this shit.

All I wanted was to be freed.

Please tell me that my christian friend is wrong...

And that it IS about a form alchemy to change or alter reality based on faith or spirits(?)

And not some psychological bullshit. :/

Save me - Remy Zero Lyrics (Smallville Theme)

[Daud]

Hardcore magic that Jesus demonstrated, like raising the dead and transforming water into wine requires intense concentration. A laser like mind that unites conscious and unconscious. This allows you to transform your universe with simple thought and will. Most western traditions don't practice such concentration. I believe i already PMd you with the details. It's a bitch to attain, but once it is attained, providing you keep it up, it only gets stronger and easier.

Jesus was a Buddha, not the son of God. He never claimed to be the son of God, he called himself "son of man". What else would "son of man" mean, other than human? Every single sentient being in the world has the potential to eventually become a Buddha. You, me and the ants crawling on the ground. However we can only become Buddhas as humans because in order to become a buddha we require a birth with a mixture of intelligence, suffering and happiness. Beings in heavens can't become Buddhas because their lives are too happy, beings in the lower realms can't because they experience too much suffering, or are too stupid. That is why a human birth is so precious.

Magic, spirits and alchemy are all products of the mind, that's why the occult is largely psychological. You haven't wasted your time, you just need to get the preliminaries first, and the preliminaries are always boring as hell. Stick to your goals and you'll get there. Unfortunately, in seeking the truth sacrifices must be made. You will need to go on a lengthy as hell search.

I believe you should find a very talented Guru, or at least go on a serious meditative retreat until you meet one in spirit form. You won't get anywhere until you find a teacher. I'd tell you to go Buddhist, but if you just want Magick, they are too modest and reserved to teach you immediatly. They'll want you to attain samadhi and start on the path to enlightenment first. Try the Hindu yogis, they know their shit and have intense concentration. Lots of really talented Yogis in India.

P.S
Not knocking on Jesus, but i find that a bit F**ked up that he would curse a tree just because it didn't have any fruit at the time. I thought he was supposed to be beyond anger and selfishness...

[Daud]

Should also add, before people jump on me.

I know that people are capable of the things talked about in the ancient tales and the eastern traditions because i've seen them with my own eyes.

I saw my childhood guru revive dead plants with a wave of his hand, i watched him change the weather at will with a wave of his hand, i felt him reading my mind, i heard him predicting the future. He was absolutely omniscient. The world is nothing other than an imputation of mind, when we come to realise this in full, there are no longer any barriers and no longer anything else to learn or attain.

[CCoburn]

I think it's more than just psychology, but you have to put the time in, choose a viable paradigm, learn it, construct a Ritual, and perform it daily if you can. Then look for manifestations of your work. Usually they will present themselves quite clearly to you. Once you have seen external manifestations, then you know your effects go beyond psychology. I'm there, but there is still a nagging skeptic within me.

I think it took me a month more or less before i had any effect. In the beginning some of the manifestations may be unpleasant, but adds to the proof.

[Kami]

I know that I can do amazing things.

But they are all explainable and repeatable - hence scientific and not magickal.

The only problem I have with magick is that I cannot perform it under stress or situations where people want me to prove it's existence while they're being super negative and ignorant.

I have explained a lot of things, which is something I am good at.

But...

When it comes to dealing with religious people - it's almost as if their electromagnetic beliefs overpower mine.

I don't mean to confuse anyone - I know everything I have talked about works and always will - it is just that trying actual magicks by occultists - doesn't makes sense to me and hence it feels all psychological compared to the actual power I have talked about and demonstrated many times before here at occultforum.

Sometimes people go as far as thinking everything is the result of magick, like my aunt.

She makes me feel like she's going crazy even though I know she isn't.

Which is why I feel so effed up about some of the magicks out there.

I know chaos magick works - but it could be disabled at anytime by messing with your belief negatively.

I know faith works - but it can be disabled at anytime by messing with your belief negatively.

A lot of magicks are based on belief and not only just belief - mental states as well and knowledge.

Imo - if you can teach me a magick and it works - then it no longer is magick in my eyes because I understand how it works.

I don't know why I have a hard time with ignorant people.

Not using the word ignorant as an insult - but just as a fact.

The point here is - I know all of this works - it is just that it takes too long when trying to prove it to someone instantly.

The only magick I can perform is that magick by john chang but on a very weak scale since I don't meditate often.

And that magick is enough to get their attention... But still isn't enough to convince them.

And even if I do manage to convince them - they'll just assume I'm in a pact with the devil or am using evil spirits or am possesed by a demon.
-_-

There is no winning with these mother fuckers.

Lol.

Seriously.

They will always find a way to make you doubt yourself, even IF you know yourself.

So, maybe we should all start documenting our practices until we come out with some type of proof that we can all access and share with our peers in the future to prove to them that they're wrong and we're right(?)

[Daud]

Funny thing about the human psyche, is that 90% of the time, proof is irrelevant. It is very difficult to change someone's opinion regarding something unless you can convince them that they came to the conclusion themselves. We are dangerously arrogant sometimes.

I'd give up on trying to convince these people. People are shockingly content to live in world views that make them comfortable, and not world views that are actually true. The sad fact of the matter is, if Jesus came back, most christians would despise him and call him a liar.

[CCoburn]

I think this "Magick in an instant" is asking a bit much, possible, but it's a tall order. Conversely, you could deceive someone into believing in real Magick using stage Magick. I've done this(as a prank).

Anyways, although I may recall some instances where I myself may have manifested certain phenomena almost instantly, the bulk of the Magick I have been dealing with is like sending an EMail. You send it, and wait for a reply. Response times from minutes to days.

[Daremo]

I would like to propose spida that science and magick are one and the same. Its quite clear with a little research that psychology is directly rooted from magick and spirituality because a practitioner needs to be their own therapist its impossible to seperate psychology from a spiritual technique or path becuase it is a better form of psychology. The difference is perspective of the same thing. Now psychology is focusing on the brain and not the mind. But most magickal technique are using psychological techniques to help us trick our own mind into focusing on the result we want. The better our focus the better our result this is as true in baseball, painting, automechanics, and brushing our teeth as it is in magick. The question I ask you is are you trying to prove it to a christian or yourself? Because honestly most of the christians I know couldnt be convinced by jesus christ himself that he was jesus returned let alone anything outside the realm of their own belief system. Even if you managed to change their mind somehow that they would believe in magick they would just dismiss you as being the pawn of rhe devil. So what is your goal in converting them? It's different of course if they are seeking guidance and answers from you. I agree with you its difficult to maintain belief when your environment constantly tries to convince you otherwise and so we should all be greatful for forums such as this one that reminds us we aren't insane. Look at the history of science though and you will quickly see it is all rooted in magick work that preceded it and it was all once considered magick even writing. Its no less magickal today than ot was in the past we have just lost apreciation for it and the scientific view point is that the universe is composed of dead matter and its energy form is of no consequence where we as magicians view the universe as alive and the energy its intelligence. Just 2 different points of view. Hope this helped.

[Daremo]

I feel i should add in case you didn't get it from the first post that as I say magick and science are one in the same I am not dismissing the powers of the mind, I meant to say that science doesn't understand the mind and I agree with what duad is saying 100% while still ascribing that it is science. I feel our minds are quite powerful and have more influence than we know, and cam perform what some would call supernatural but to me it is all totally natural and there is no such thing as supernatural. Its just different than what we call technology which is a magickal product that someone with no understanding can use, where ritual technique and spell casting is something an individual must perfect in themselves there is no external machine as of yet that we can turn on to give us the ability to focus our wills. Until that machine is made magick will be under debate by those who wish humanity to be weak and malleable to the will of those who want to control the masses.

[Seabed]

Magick and science are not the same thing, it's so obvious.
Magick is reality, a part of the real world where we, humans live. Magick makes you feel alive.
Contemporary science has no relation to reality. Science build a structure/wall between human's world and reality in order to serve there's investors to gain more wealth. The nature of science is anti-human, makes humans powerless. This could be one of the reasons why so many people today feel so hopeless and lost, even our quality of life could be almost perfect.

[Daremo]

I would like to propose spida that science and magick are one and the same.

Edit that, I meant my response for kami not spida my apologies thought spida started the thread, the pic should have been a dead give away.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

This whole process is a long slog. Human evolution in general is a multi incarnational slug-out with nature and when one is trying to push it in themselves it can be a maddeningly slow process.

When considering myself I see that I'm accruing the knowledge for the road but my own biology might have quite a ways to go as far as the path between the two towers of Key 18: The Moon. From that I'm learning patience isn't just a virtue - it's a necessity.

My anecdote aside I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish or what you're hoping for in putting this much immediate performance pressure on yourself. I think you'd be better off, if at all possible, taking that fire in in hand if it's naturally there and turning it to the full rigors of Bardon's system, A.'.A.'., or some place in general where you can take it out on the process and let people be people which is something you don't and will not have control over.

Also I'm in full agreement with Daud - the facts don't matter with people, more often than anything their usefulness in social hierarchy comes first and foremost, and there's never a more frustrating activity than trying to display someone whose either hard-headed by echo-chambering or by willful blindness of a point subtle or non-obvious that it takes them conceding a lot of pet ideas and ingrained boiler-plate on their reality to even get to where you can agree enough on reality for them to even process what you're getting at.


Like any really long-term process whether it's mastery of a martial art, becoming a great musician, or anything like that, you have to enjoy showing up to practice and get to the point where you enjoy showing up to practice enough that you almost forget to worry about how fast you're moving or that you're moving at all, rather the movement and progression forward is just a product of the practice and the practice an enriching aspect of your life.

I hope none of that sounds preachy - I just mean pace yourself and make sure you're applying your ambition in ways that further you. When you point it at other people and convincing them quite often that's motivation being turned against itself that really could have been giving you more boost.

[Desecrated]

The difference between chaos magick and the miracles performed in the bible is that a miracle is goods will performed through a human, and chaos magick is your will performed through you.

Now there are plenty of magic traditions out there that utilizes god, gods or other spirits the same way as moses and jesus did.
Miracles is just another word for magic. Prayer is just another word for spells. Mass is just another word for ritual.

And yes. What jesus is talking about in that part is faith. This is repeated when he walks on water, tells his student that he can do it, the students steps out on the water and of course falls through, so jesus gets bitchy on him and tell him that it would have worked if he just had faith.

So jesus is using magic to demonstrate faith.

Now psychology is something different. And I don't know why the topic is psychology vs magic, when your content is you vs your christian friend.

[Desecrated]

"if you can teach me a magick and it works - then it no longer is magick in my eyes because I understand how it works."

Then your not looking for magic, you are looking for something else.

[Procel]

Wow, where to begin. I have trouble cutting and pasting on this device, so I will refer to things said, not actually quote them.

First, yes, Jesus performed magick and said others could do the same. Jesus was powerful and truthful, the bullshit in the bible and in the faith came in over time, but He was the real deal. Your friend believes what he was taught. Some of that involves swallowing centuries of manipulation.

Now,the heart of the issue. You believe, based on a couple of years. You now demand "prove it, or this is bullshit..." again based on a couple short years. I submit that you are behaving like a child. "... Show me the wisdom NOW!" "Enlightenment, or I will hold my breath and....and....and..." No. It doesn't work that way. Walk away if you will, or keep working if you will. Demand magick? No dice.

Proving magick to your friends is a fool's errand. Don't bother. Memorize a few sports statistics. Learn some stage magic tricks to entertain them. Talk about the weather. Whatever you do, keep your Work to yourself. You won't likely be killed over it today, but it used to happen. Today, you will just be laughed at and mocked. Screw that.

A couple years... that's a good start. It's not uncommon to hit this plateau and start doubting. This is all as it is. Now, work through it or walk away. Your choice.

[Kami]

Thank you all for the magickian slap to the face.

It was hours of conversation that I had with my christian friend.

I know that we as human beings can come up with an explanation for anything - which is why I always stay stuck in limbo - not fully submerging myself into either or; magick or psychology.

Everything I have ever posted about - I have either experienced, seen happen, or I have just figured something out and is obviously self explanatory in some cases.

It's just weird to me.

Eveything is magickal to me if I don't understand how it works, but once I do - it doesn't feel like magick anymore.

[Kami]

I think this "Magick in an instant" is asking a bit much, possible, but it's a tall order. Conversely, you could deceive someone into believing in real Magick using stage Magick. I've done this(as a prank).

Anyways, although I may recall some instances where I myself may have manifested certain phenomena almost instantly, the bulk of the Magick I have been dealing with is like sending an EMail. You send it, and wait for a reply. Response times from minutes to days.

I'm not asking for instant magick - I am asking for a method that is guaranteed to work if I follow it correctly.

[Kami]

I would like to propose spida that science and magick are one and the same. Its quite clear with a little research that psychology is directly rooted from magick and spirituality because a practitioner needs to be their own therapist its impossible to seperate psychology from a spiritual technique or path becuase it is a better form of psychology. The difference is perspective of the same thing. Now psychology is focusing on the brain and not the mind. But most magickal technique are using psychological techniques to help us trick our own mind into focusing on the result we want. The better our focus the better our result this is as true in baseball, painting, automechanics, and brushing our teeth as it is in magick. The question I ask you is are you trying to prove it to a christian or yourself? Because honestly most of the christians I know couldnt be convinced by jesus christ himself that he was jesus returned let alone anything outside the realm of their own belief system. Even if you managed to change their mind somehow that they would believe in magick they would just dismiss you as being the pawn of rhe devil. So what is your goal in converting them? It's different of course if they are seeking guidance and answers from you. I agree with you its difficult to maintain belief when your environment constantly tries to convince you otherwise and so we should all be greatful for forums such as this one that reminds us we aren't insane. Look at the history of science though and you will quickly see it is all rooted in magick work that preceded it and it was all once considered magick even writing. Its no less magickal today than ot was in the past we have just lost apreciation for it and the scientific view point is that the universe is composed of dead matter and its energy form is of no consequence where we as magicians view the universe as alive and the energy its intelligence. Just 2 different points of view. Hope this helped.

I know that science and magick are two sides of the same coin.

[Kami]

Magick and science are not the same thing, it's so obvious.
Magick is reality, a part of the real world where we, humans live. Magick makes you feel alive.
Contemporary science has no relation to reality. Science build a structure/wall between human's world and reality in order to serve there's investors to gain more wealth. The nature of science is anti-human, makes humans powerless. This could be one of the reasons why so many people today feel so hopeless and lost, even our quality of life could be almost perfect.

Science is manipulating electricity.

It's all about funding what works and what doesn't and then forgetting about all of the nonsense that doesn't work.

Electricity IS magick.

We can go years without ever knowing technology and still perform magick that is based off of our heart's e.m. radiation.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Eveything is magickal to me if I don't understand how it works, but once I do - it doesn't feel like magick anymore.

Interesting. I tend to have the opposite experience, ie. if I can't come up with a sound justification for how it works (material or immaterial) my subconscious treats it as hocus-pocus regardless of who the author is or how much veteran credibility they hold.

[Kami]

This whole process is a long slog. Human evolution in general is a multi incarnational slug-out with nature and when one is trying to push it in themselves it can be a maddeningly slow process.

When considering myself I see that I'm accruing the knowledge for the road but my own biology might have quite a ways to go as far as the path between the two towers of Key 18: The Moon. From that I'm learning patience isn't just a virtue - it's a necessity.

My anecdote aside I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish or what you're hoping for in putting this much immediate performance pressure on yourself. I think you'd be better off, if at all possible, taking that fire in in hand if it's naturally there and turning it to the full rigors of Bardon's system, A.'.A.'., or some place in general where you can take it out on the process and let people be people which is something you don't and will not have control over.

Also I'm in full agreement with Daud - the facts don't matter with people, more often than anything their usefulness in social hierarchy comes first and foremost, and there's never a more frustrating activity than trying to display someone whose either hard-headed by echo-chambering or by willful blindness of a point subtle or non-obvious that it takes them conceding a lot of pet ideas and ingrained boiler-plate on their reality to even get to where you can agree enough on reality for them to even process what you're getting at.


Like any really long-term process whether it's mastery of a martial art, becoming a great musician, or anything like that, you have to enjoy showing up to practice and get to the point where you enjoy showing up to practice enough that you almost forget to worry about how fast you're moving or that you're moving at all, rather the movement and progression forward is just a product of the practice and the practice an enriching aspect of your life.

I hope none of that sounds preachy - I just mean pace yourself and make sure you're applying your ambition in ways that further you. When you point it at other people and convincing them quite often that's motivation being turned against itself that really could have been giving you more boost.

I'm trying to define the processes by which what we consider: "Magick" - Occurs.

And I have done a good job up until now.

I just need something more impressive to be a fisher of men - to real in more students.

[Kami]

The difference between chaos magick and the miracles performed in the bible is that a miracle is goods will performed through a human, and chaos magick is your will performed through you.

Now there are plenty of magic traditions out there that utilizes god, gods or other spirits the same way as moses and jesus did.
Miracles is just another word for magic. Prayer is just another word for spells. Mass is just another word for ritual.

And yes. What jesus is talking about in that part is faith. This is repeated when he walks on water, tells his student that he can do it, the students steps out on the water and of course falls through, so jesus gets bitchy on him and tell him that it would have worked if he just had faith.

So jesus is using magic to demonstrate faith.

Now psychology is something different. And I don't know why the topic is psychology vs magic, when your content is you vs your christian friend.

Thank you for clarifying. <3

[Kami]

"if you can teach me a magick and it works - then it no longer is magick in my eyes because I understand how it works."

Then your not looking for magic, you are looking for something else.

Cybernetic_Jazz Feels the same way about me. XD

But basically - I am someone who enjoys monitoring myself as I perform what people believes is magick and then I do my very best to describe what is happening with as much science as I can.

For example:

Healers are considered magickal.

But all they're doing is feeling and thinking something that has an effect on their patients.

There's more than just thinking and feeling going on - but that's too much to talk about, I have talked about it in my other threads and posts.

But you get what I am getting at. ~

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Cybernetic_Jazz Feels the same way about me. XD

My message was really that you need endurance for the road ahead. If you beat yourself up too much over the speed of progress you put your motivational rations at risk. What you said about quitting all of this stuff if you couldn't find what you need - there's nothing to go back to. We're all I think permanently spit out of Newtonian materialism's mouth so going back to that is a no-go.

[Daremo]

Kami I hope that i didn't give you the impression I was mage slapping you. You presented a question and the impression of yourself that you present to us here seems similar to my own thoughts and methods of weighing and balancing experiments and results so I was just offering the point of view I have gleaned from my results and experiences. You seem to have gotten the answer your looking for, my opinion remains that practical magick(ie science) is the only magick that can be instantly shown however those you show it to are self programmed to call it science and not magick just as there are as many different words for tree as there are languages to speak including all the forms of infant gibberish spoken by babies as they struggle to convey their thoughts and ideas to us. Such is life so much miscommunication and confusion.