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magari wrote:

Desecrated wrote:

magari wrote:We are now off topic but....

The difference between quantum and what we experience is a matter of perspective.

The reality is our world proceeds the subatomic one, which is why it's important to understand what happens down there.

As above, so below.

Oddly enough no.

A single buffalo can eat grass, but a group of buffalos can't eat as a group, they always remain eating as individuals.
Molecules never behave like atoms. Even though they consists of atom. And when you get into the subatomic particles they break the laws of physics in such way that we had to invent a particular set of rules that applies to them and only them.

I have a hard time following you and I think you missed my point.

Ignoring the principles that make up the building blocks of reality is not exactly intelligent.

As above, so below.

Chaos mathematics is used to explain what happens at the subatomic level. It can also be used to explain the movements of a herd of buffalo, humans, and even the stars.

Not saying it's the end all, be all.

Just that the operations of the subatomic level (which are the building blocks of reality) are mirrored in everything when you take a zoomed out perspective.

As above, so below.

As above , so below doesn't always apply to quantum. Sure there are some things that are parallel, but there is also so much going on that can't be translated. The fact that everything in our reality is affected by gravity and only some quantum particles are, and we are not really sure how they are because they shouldn't just makes comparison really hard.

I've heard a lot of people talk about magic in the same way that the double slit test works. Can observation change reality, and if such, can thought change other peoples observation.

And the answer to that question is both yes and no.

Sypheara wrote:

Desecrated wrote:

Sypheara wrote:To be fair, Occams Razor would also probably discount alot of things discovered by Quantum Mechanics.

I honestly don't know why it is still considered useful, time and time again its proven to be incorrect.

Quantum Mechanics can not be applied to anything else then the quantum state. Honestly I don't understand why so many new age people use it to explain everything that happens in this state.

This is actually untrue, it has been proven quite recently to influence alot at the larger scale, including biology.

That division is starting to fall away.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... ZZUwPlVhBc

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... t-the-past

Just being some very narrow and quickly grabbed examples as to how its slowly becoming more accepted as having a larger and more prominent impact.

Also, I wouldn't call myself new age. Most of the new age explanations, viewpoints etc are quite mad, and i don't hold them. And you are right in the Quantum Mechanics is always pulled out to explain xyz.

My main point was that quantum mechanics and how it works often goes against the most simple is correct methodology espoused by Occams Razor.

Even macro examples work against it. What was more simple to our ancestors? That we were the centre of the universe or that we all rotated around a flaming ball, made up of a stellar galaxy of millions of billions of stars? From earth you could deduce both with good evidence to support your view, but the incorrect one would require less assumption and likely be selected, a wrong conclusion.

It is also used quite badly whenever its brought up on the internet, and is often used to discard a complex theory that has quite alot supporting evidence over a simple theory that has very few supporting evidence etc.

I feel its better as a thought experiment than used in practice because of this.

Fair enough, I will not use the occams razor as an argument on this topic.

Maya The Generator wrote:Quantum Physiqs WILL be good way of explaining lots of things. But this field of study is quiet new and need time to develop. Tryin to use it right now as argument is silly. Sorry for offtopic, just my 2 cents. [tongue]

What is even worse is that there is maybe 3 persons on this earth that fully understand quantum mechanics. And I'm not one of them.

Rin wrote:

Desecrated wrote:

Rin wrote:
Is magic a religion?

Haha, not getting pulled into that one either :p To answer such a question would require first a very precise definition of both "magic" and "religion," and naturally those definitions are going to vary from individual to individual.

O come on. You know you want to. [devil]

Desecrated wrote:
As above , so below doesn't always apply to quantum. Sure there are some things that are parallel, but there is also so much going on that can't be translated. The fact that everything in our reality is affected by gravity and only some quantum particles are, and we are not really sure how they are because they shouldn't just makes comparison really hard.

I've heard a lot of people talk about magic in the same way that the double slit test works. Can observation change reality, and if such, can thought change other peoples observation.

And the answer to that question is both yes and no.

You're not wrong.

It's a chicken and egg conundrum.

But you have a choice.

Be the victim, or the victor.

Yes spells can happen through a collaboration of coincidence, but you feel magick. The problem is most of the books sold now are impracticle or prescribed magick where you must combine what youve learned into formulated magick. It's very hard there aren't too many crowleys walking around these days people develop individual occult skills and thats It there really isn't such thing as a true wizzard or witch anymore in big numbers. The golden dawn was shut down in the 70s as a occult organization and they basically ended thelema. If your really interested choose a main path that you are naturally good at and pick up occult skills from other systems as desired. And if your looking for a book that you want thats hard to find keep looking sometimes you have to go to select book dealers like in the movie the ninth gate. Lol

Well, I see that we are little off topic but, I think I got some good answers from the messages. Thanks a lot guys.

Clockwork_Ghost wrote:Magick is real = the sun will come up tomorrow.

Too much - I'm starting to understand why Desecrated writes those short-arse posts.

Magick is real because it is, just like Venus is real because its a planet, and you're going to need to take a shit in the next ten hours. What have I done? Ummmm... conquered a mental illness that I shouldn't be able to crack? Found my soul mate and twin flame, made a fuck-ton of cash, built my own business, had heaps of fun, met all kinds of awesome people, lived my life the way I wanted to.

That enough for you?

Actually Clockwork_Ghost thanks, that's what I was really asking.

Now the question is how can I do the same things? What do you guys suggest me to study? Is this a good resource for a beginner http://www.magickofthought.com/2010/07/ ... e-novices/

or this one http://ultraculture.org/blog/2015/01/12 ... os-magick/ ?

It depends on what you're hoping to achieve through your practice - why is it you want to practice magic in the first place? What are you looking for?

Rin wrote:It depends on what you're hoping to achieve through your practice - why is it you want to practice magic in the first place? What are you looking for?

I want to get a job from a sector which is very hard to get into and I also want to have a nice and smart girlfriend. I actually made some progress for my first wish with hard work and networking, but it doesn't guarantee me a job. I need more than hard work to get a job there.

Hello again,

I wonder why nobody has answered my last question. Is it wrong to use magick for the things I wrote in my previous post?

bruceb wrote: Now the question is how can I do the same things? What do you guys suggest me to study? Is this a good resource for a beginner http://www.magickofthought.com/2010/07/ ... e-novices/

or this one http://ultraculture.org/blog/2015/01/12 ... os-magick/ ?

There is no one single path as an answer to your questions.
You should find your own path... feel it, more than just relying on logic. Then pursue it, stay dedicated, learn, improve and see what happens.

Links you've posted are ok... I mean, see what grasps your attention and go from there. This forum has bunch of useful info as well (check Help and Beginner subforums).

bruceb wrote: Is it wrong to use magick for the things I wrote in my previous post?

I think all these good/bad, moral/immoral stuff is highly subjective. However, there are consequences, I mean you can't have action without reaction.

If you use magick and think you've used it for something wrong - it's wrong.
If you use magick and think you've used it for something right - it's right.

The thing is that you can't lie to your true self, a certain someone you'll meet soon enough if you seriously start practicing magick.

I take a pretty simple approach to the question of morality and magic - if you wouldn't do it without magic, don't do it with magic.

These are things you can definitely accomplish with magick, but its a big ask, takes a lot of time and understanding. Definitely nothing you can accomplish without a lot of practice. If your asking us how, then youll need to provide a lot more information regarding each situation independently as well as your current situation as is.

For men, work and women can be tied together very easily and it takes a lot to separate the two once they've been joined.

This depends on a deep understanding of yourself. Hope that makes sense.

Rin wrote: Anyway, I don't intend to get into an extended debate on the mental v. metaphysical nature of magic, I just wanted to provide an alternative point of view for the OP so he can understand that the "ritualized psychology" theory of magic is far from universal.

The ritualized psychology vs. underlying reality outlooks are something that I tend to hold loosely. I can't help but feel like it's underlying reality, ritualized psychology essentially being the front-end utility before our faculties have opened, and if anything the ritualized psychology approach tends to show staunch materialists that the act of working with their subjective can indeed yield very meaningful results - sadly I know a lot of people who actually seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater, treat subjective experience as inferior, and thus they live lives rivited to the physical world and nothing else - for them it would be a groundbreaking discovery or re-discovery that their subjective is worth something.

Fully agreed though that one can't be too strong or hard-line of an atheist in this work and the few times I did run into someone who was ravingly against any viewpoint that wasn't magic as purely psychological ritual (thinking of a poster from a year ago actually) it seemed to be half as annoying as being chased around some other kind of forum by an anti-theist.

On one hand it seems like when we blow the clouds away that our filters blanket us with we start seeing all kinds of fascinating things that we wouldn't have thought were there but our subconscious mind seems to provide us (whether that's the right brain as the front portico or a part of us from beyond the quantum barrier I'm not 100% sure albeit I'm getting reasonably suspicious that long-term memory is not in the brain). While the akashia seem to be notoriously difficult to read accurately, and to some extent differences of opinion and observation seem to feed the pejoritization of this as 'woo', certain things seem to be observed - often times either by the same people in the same place or different people without correspondence catching an idea across a distance - that quite strongly suggests that there's something there, just that along with the suggestion goes the caveat that we're still, even our best, are atrociously nascent in their ability to rationally digest it. Whether we'll have a better grip on in in 1,000 years or even that our society will be living with it and using it every day in a 'Future Jupiter' period remains to be seen, just that human evolution being what it is I have my doubts that we won't make full use of the faculties that we're marginally aware of now and even then I'm sure keep finding more phenomena at that point which we're as marginally aware of then as we're marginally aware of 'magic' now.

Back to OP topic:

The moment you find yourself in a bad mood because you had a awful day at work or had a fight with someone and notice that you can either go to a peaceful place in meditation, get hugged on and nurtured by an imaginary friend, or choose to listen to a good cd to change your mood and really have it intellectually dawn on you that your change in subjective experience had a decisive change in how the rest of your day went (hence objective effect) - you're opening the door to the potential of using psychology in a ritualized manner.

That's the front door, the portico, to unknown vistas within. Whether you'll simply find a great way to reprogram your brain and write your own software and better/more gainful software at that than the belief structures society gave you or whether you'll truly have the plains of Yetzirah and perhaps even Briah open up to you - that's an individual discovery to be made. Suffice to say that there's nothing anyone will be able to tell you, no matter how persuasive they might seem, that will ever truly cause you to believe something unless it comes in through your own senses inwardly or outwardly.

So - dig in, research, get your hands dirty with the meditation and possibly the LRP and MP - see what comes of it!

Guys thanks a lot. I understand from your posts that there are different ways of doing magick and I should first start by learning meditation. Therefore I'll do some research on meditation and try to practice it. By the way Cybernatic_Jazz what are LRP and MP?

Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram, Middle Pillar.

Hello again,

I did some more research along with meditation studies and I would like share the things I found with other beginners:

I think these two books are nice starting points:
Advanced Magick for Beginners by Alan Chapman
Liber Null & Psychonaut: An Introduction to Chaos Magic by Peter J. Carroll

I also found an online magick course site: http://www.quareia.com/

Best