Some beginner questions on occult and magick

[bruceb]

Hello dear forum members,

I have recently become interested in occult and magick after some events in my personal life. I have been reading this forum and some other online sources to find answers to my questions. I tried to learn about the history of occultism, different practices like hermetism and chaos magick by doing some online research, but I still couldn't find an answer to following questions in my head.

Firstly, I am not sure whether magick is real or not. Do you mind to share your experiences with magick please? Did it work for you? What did you want and what was the result? If it is too personal, a brief "yes it is working" is also enough for me.

As far as I understood, magick is a very spiritual experience and I wonder how does magick work? More specially I would like know what kind of changes can it make in real life? I heard that after the magickal practise, the desired results will become real by a combination coincidences. I don't know how to practice magick, but I personally felt that my wishes became true after some time via some series of coincidences. Did I make magick?

Any help will be very much appreciated.

(Sorry for any grammer mistakes, English is not my native language)

[magari]

Let me know if this helps...

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=37891

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=37892

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... =2&t=37893

[Desecrated]

Hello dear forum members,

I have recently become interested in occult and magick after some events in my personal life. I have been reading this forum and some other online sources to find answers to my questions. I tried to learn about the history of occultism, different practices like hermetism and chaos magick by doing some online research, but I still couldn't find an answer to following questions in my head.

Firstly, I am not sure whether magick is real or not. Do you mind to share your experiences with magick please? Did it work for you? What did you want and what was the result? If it is too personal, a brief "yes it is working" is also enough for me.

As far as I understood, magick is a very spiritual experience and I wonder how does magick work? More specially I would like know what kind of changes can it make in real life? I heard that after the magickal practise, the desired results will become real by a combination coincidences. I don't know how to practice magick, but I personally felt that my wishes became true after some time via some series of coincidences. Did I make magick?

Any help will be very much appreciated.

(Sorry for any grammer mistakes, English is not my native language)

Magic is not wizardry.
We don't shoot lightning bolts through our fingers and fly on dragons.

I have never seen, heard or experienced any magic that could not be explained with normal science.
If you say that you saw a light, I can say that your brain produced that light and gave the illusion of seeing it.

Was the light really there, or did you just think it was?
Who knows!
What we are working with is the experience of that light, whether or not it is really real or just manufactured real. We still experience it, so it's worth exploring.

If nothing else magic is just a way to train your own imagination. And imagination often leads to creativity, and creativity often leads to positive actions. And that benefits me, my life and those in it.

[Rin]

Hello dear forum members,

I have recently become interested in occult and magick after some events in my personal life. I have been reading this forum and some other online sources to find answers to my questions. I tried to learn about the history of occultism, different practices like hermetism and chaos magick by doing some online research, but I still couldn't find an answer to following questions in my head.

Firstly, I am not sure whether magick is real or not. Do you mind to share your experiences with magick please? Did it work for you? What did you want and what was the result? If it is too personal, a brief "yes it is working" is also enough for me.

As far as I understood, magick is a very spiritual experience and I wonder how does magick work? More specially I would like know what kind of changes can it make in real life? I heard that after the magickal practise, the desired results will become real by a combination coincidences. I don't know how to practice magick, but I personally felt that my wishes became true after some time via some series of coincidences. Did I make magick?

Any help will be very much appreciated.

(Sorry for any grammer mistakes, English is not my native language)

Magic is not wizardry.
We don't shoot lightning bolts through our fingers and fly on dragons.

I have never seen, heard or experienced any magic that could not be explained with normal science.
If you say that you saw a light, I can say that your brain produced that light and gave the illusion of seeing it.

Was the light really there, or did you just think it was?
Who knows!
What we are working with is the experience of that light, whether or not it is really real or just manufactured real. We still experience it, so it's worth exploring.

If nothing else magic is just a way to train your own imagination. And imagination often leads to creativity, and creativity often leads to positive actions. And that benefits me, my life and those in it.

For an alternative viewpoint: while I think lightning bolts and riding dragons may be a bit ambitious, I think there's plenty of evidence for magic being a real, external phenomena, and not just a form of ritualized self-help, and my own personal experiences (as well as those of many people I know - intelligent, discerning, skeptical people and dedicated practitioners) support that evidence.

[Desecrated]

For an alternative viewpoint: while I think lightning bolts and riding dragons may be a bit ambitious, I think there's plenty of evidence for magic being a real, external phenomena, and not just a form of ritualized self-help, and my own personal experiences (as well as those of many people I know - intelligent, discerning, skeptical people and dedicated practitioners) support that evidence.

Current science says that nothing can move/happen without something causing it.

Most people who are working with magic will tell you that sometimes things happens by themselves.

A pure scientific view of the world says that this is impossible.
Therefore the scientific explanation of spirits, energy and so on would all just be manifestations of the human mind.

I'm personally convinced that once you start working towards a certain point, things that would normally be called chance, luck or coincident seem to start working with you.
Serendipity is one of my strongest allies. It happens on such a regular basis that I don't even question it anymore.

I can explain every single action scientifically, but this idea that my will is manifesting things on an overall scale is magical thinking. Technically, we're all insane.

[magari]

Have you looked into chaos mathematics?

They used those theories to prove the existence of subatomic particles before we could measure or observe them.

[Rin]

Current science says that nothing can move/happen without something causing it.

Most people who are working with magic will tell you that sometimes things happens by themselves.

A pure scientific view of the world says that this is impossible.
Therefore the scientific explanation of spirits, energy and so on would all just be manifestations of the human mind.

I'm personally convinced that once you start working towards a certain point, things that would normally be called chance, luck or coincident seem to start working with you.
Serendipity is one of my strongest allies. It happens on such a regular basis that I don't even question it anymore.

I can explain every single action scientifically, but this idea that my will is manifesting things on an overall scale is magical thinking. Technically, we're all insane.

Just because a cause isn't understood doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are plenty of aspects of the universe which aren't yet understood by or integrated into the mainstream western scientific worldview - doesn't mean they don't exist.

To look at it from the opposite direction - a thing doesn't pop into existence once we develop a scientific understanding of it. Gravity was in place a long time before anyone actually stopped and thought about what it was, where it came from and how to measure it. I'm entirely convinced that in the same way, we'll one day reach the point where we have a firm scientific grasp of metaphysical and spiritual phenomena - spirits, energies, magic, other planes of reality, etc. it's just a question of waiting for science and society to evolve. In the meantime, those aspects of reality can be worked with even without a solid scientific understanding, you just have to rely on experimentation, experience and trustworthy anecdotal consensus.

[magari]

I'm saying chaos mathematics is proof of the probability you're right Rin.

[Desecrated]

Have you looked into chaos mathematics?

They used those theories to prove the existence of subatomic particles before we could measure or observe them.

Yeah, but we are not subatomic. There is a shipload of crazy things happening down there, bu that doesn't translate to out world. A mass less particle can movie in ways a particle with mass can't.

[Desecrated]

Just because a cause isn't understood doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are plenty of aspects of the universe which aren't yet understood by or integrated into the mainstream western scientific worldview - doesn't mean they don't exist.

To look at it from the opposite direction - a thing doesn't pop into existence once we develop a scientific understanding of it. Gravity was in place a long time before anyone actually stopped and thought about what it was, where it came from and how to measure it. I'm entirely convinced that in the same way, we'll one day reach the point where we have a firm scientific grasp of metaphysical and spiritual phenomena - spirits, energies, magic, other planes of reality, etc. it's just a question of waiting for science and society to evolve. In the meantime, those aspects of reality can be worked with even without a solid scientific understanding, you just have to rely on experimentation, experience and trustworthy anecdotal consensus.

Well, everything we have today that might not be fully understood. is measurable and or affects other things around it.
Even if you don't understand Einstein. objects are drawn to the ground. Everybody from Sheldon to house cats know this.

But lets take spirits. No scientific sightings. No measurements, no way to measure them. Don't exist on any plane of existence that we can comprehend without training or exceptional talent.
Occam's razor says that the easiest explanation is that they don't exists and the people who claim they are, are just insane.

[Sypheara]

To be fair, Occams Razor would also probably discount alot of things discovered by Quantum Mechanics.

I honestly don't know why it is still considered useful, time and time again its proven to be incorrect.

[Clockwork Ghost]

Magick is real = the sun will come up tomorrow.

Too much - I'm starting to understand why Desecrated writes those short-arse posts.

Magick is real because it is, just like Venus is real because its a planet, and you're going to need to take a shit in the next ten hours. What have I done? Ummmm... conquered a mental illness that I shouldn't be able to crack? Found my soul mate and twin flame, made a fuck-ton of cash, built my own business, had heaps of fun, met all kinds of awesome people, lived my life the way I wanted to.

That enough for you?

[Rin]

Just because a cause isn't understood doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are plenty of aspects of the universe which aren't yet understood by or integrated into the mainstream western scientific worldview - doesn't mean they don't exist.

To look at it from the opposite direction - a thing doesn't pop into existence once we develop a scientific understanding of it. Gravity was in place a long time before anyone actually stopped and thought about what it was, where it came from and how to measure it. I'm entirely convinced that in the same way, we'll one day reach the point where we have a firm scientific grasp of metaphysical and spiritual phenomena - spirits, energies, magic, other planes of reality, etc. it's just a question of waiting for science and society to evolve. In the meantime, those aspects of reality can be worked with even without a solid scientific understanding, you just have to rely on experimentation, experience and trustworthy anecdotal consensus.

Well, everything we have today that might not be fully understood. is measurable and or affects other things around it.
Even if you don't understand Einstein. objects are drawn to the ground. Everybody from Sheldon to house cats know this.

But lets take spirits. No scientific sightings. No measurements, no way to measure them. Don't exist on any plane of existence that we can comprehend without training or exceptional talent.
Occam's razor says that the easiest explanation is that they don't exists and the people who claim they are, are just insane.

Occam's razor is a useful intellectual tool, but it isn't a universal constant and treating it as such is only counterproductive.

As for scientific evidence - while I can't speak for the existence of spiritual beings in particular (as they would be one of the hardest aspects of magic to quantify, since anything which can be attributed to a spirit can also be attributed to other phenomena which do have greater supporting evidence), there is a large pile of thorough, recent and peer-reviewed studies which demonstrate the existence of phenomena such as ESP and psychokinesis (and various sub-categories such as telepathy, precognition, remote viewing, OBE's, "spiritual/energetic" healing, psychokinetic manipulation of matter on a micro and macro scale, etc etc). This page has a decent collection of links which you can peruse, although if you want a more indepth meta-analysis, I highly suggest Radin's "The Conscious Universe": http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

Anyway, I don't intend to get into an extended debate on the mental v. metaphysical nature of magic, I just wanted to provide an alternative point of view for the OP so he can understand that the "ritualized psychology" theory of magic is far from universal.

[Sypheara]

I'm starting to understand why Desecrated writes those short-arse posts.

Someones gotta be the sounding board. [devil]

[Desecrated]

To be fair, Occams Razor would also probably discount alot of things discovered by Quantum Mechanics.

I honestly don't know why it is still considered useful, time and time again its proven to be incorrect.

Quantum Mechanics can not be applied to anything else then the quantum state. Honestly I don't understand why so many new age people use it to explain everything that happens in this state.

[Desecrated]

Anyway, I don't intend to get into an extended debate on the mental v. metaphysical nature of magic, I just wanted to provide an alternative point of view for the OP so he can understand that the "ritualized psychology" theory of magic is far from universal.

Good.
Very good

Now comes the interesting question.

Is magic a religion?

[RoseRed]

No, although some people approach it that way. Magic can be used in religious ceremony but magic itself isn't.

[magari]

We are now off topic but....

The difference between quantum and what we experience is a matter of perspective.

The reality is our world proceeds the subatomic one, which is why it's important to understand what happens down there.

As above, so below.

[magari]

Correction.

Perspective 》scale

[Desecrated]

We are now off topic but....

The difference between quantum and what we experience is a matter of perspective.

The reality is our world proceeds the subatomic one, which is why it's important to understand what happens down there.

As above, so below.

Oddly enough no.

A single buffalo can eat grass, but a group of buffalos can't eat as a group, they always remain eating as individuals.
Molecules never behave like atoms. Even though they consists of atom. And when you get into the subatomic particles they break the laws of physics in such way that we had to invent a particular set of rules that applies to them and only them.

[Desecrated]

No, although some people approach it that way. Magic can be used in religious ceremony but magic itself isn't.

Well, ceremony is certainly a part of religion to.
I thought more about the way of thinking.

Religion is basically a belief in something supernatural or paranormal. It can be a god or several gods, spirits, energy, luck, fate or meaning behind natural occurrences.

There is also this lovely quote:

The anthropologist Clifford Geertz defined religion as a "system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic."

[Sypheara]

To be fair, Occams Razor would also probably discount alot of things discovered by Quantum Mechanics.

I honestly don't know why it is still considered useful, time and time again its proven to be incorrect.

Quantum Mechanics can not be applied to anything else then the quantum state. Honestly I don't understand why so many new age people use it to explain everything that happens in this state.

This is actually untrue, it has been proven quite recently to influence alot at the larger scale, including biology.

That division is starting to fall away.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... ZZUwPlVhBc

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... t-the-past

Just being some very narrow and quickly grabbed examples as to how its slowly becoming more accepted as having a larger and more prominent impact.

Also, I wouldn't call myself new age. Most of the new age explanations, viewpoints etc are quite mad, and i don't hold them. And you are right in the Quantum Mechanics is always pulled out to explain xyz.

My main point was that quantum mechanics and how it works often goes against the most simple is correct methodology espoused by Occams Razor.

Even macro examples work against it. What was more simple to our ancestors? That we were the centre of the universe or that we all rotated around a flaming ball, made up of a stellar galaxy of millions of billions of stars? From earth you could deduce both with good evidence to support your view, but the incorrect one would require less assumption and likely be selected, a wrong conclusion.

It is also used quite badly whenever its brought up on the internet, and is often used to discard a complex theory that has quite alot supporting evidence over a simple theory that has very few supporting evidence etc.

I feel its better as a thought experiment than used in practice because of this.

[Maya The Generator]

Quantum Physiqs WILL be good way of explaining lots of things. But this field of study is quiet new and need time to develop. Tryin to use it right now as argument is silly. Sorry for offtopic, just my 2 cents. [tongue]

[Rin]

Anyway, I don't intend to get into an extended debate on the mental v. metaphysical nature of magic, I just wanted to provide an alternative point of view for the OP so he can understand that the "ritualized psychology" theory of magic is far from universal.

Good.
Very good

Now comes the interesting question.

Is magic a religion?

Haha, not getting pulled into that one either :p To answer such a question would require first a very precise definition of both "magic" and "religion," and naturally those definitions are going to vary from individual to individual.

[magari]

We are now off topic but....

The difference between quantum and what we experience is a matter of perspective.

The reality is our world proceeds the subatomic one, which is why it's important to understand what happens down there.

As above, so below.

Oddly enough no.

A single buffalo can eat grass, but a group of buffalos can't eat as a group, they always remain eating as individuals.
Molecules never behave like atoms. Even though they consists of atom. And when you get into the subatomic particles they break the laws of physics in such way that we had to invent a particular set of rules that applies to them and only them.

I have a hard time following you and I think you missed my point.

Ignoring the principles that make up the building blocks of reality is not exactly intelligent.

As above, so below.

Chaos mathematics is used to explain what happens at the subatomic level. It can also be used to explain the movements of a herd of buffalo, humans, and even the stars.

Not saying it's the end all, be all.

Just that the operations of the subatomic level (which are the building blocks of reality) are mirrored in everything when you take a zoomed out perspective.

As above, so below.