Irish Gods

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Original post: girlwithhair

I was wondering. How many of you work with the Irish Gods and Goddesses? Any good books you would recommend?

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Original post: FioraS

Celtic Magick is a good book!

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Original post: endor957

i don't mean to sound off here, but what you're asking is a very hard question to answer in my book.
i mean sure, there's a new age section to everything nowadays but to understand something as culturally indepth like that would take years of study and perhaps tracing your roots would help too.
good luck

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Original post: Hecate's Priestess

Celtic Myth and Magic by Edain McCoy...wonderful book...I also agree with Endor about tracing your roots. Celtic history is steeped in witchcraft, in England, Whales, Scotland, North Ireland...etc...I studied the Celts for a few years (it's part of my history) and I did understand it more once I traced my family. Let your ancestors show the way....the Celts like to do that.

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Original post: shinotenshi

[QUOTE=FioraS]Celtic Magick is a good book![/QUOTE]
That was the first book I thought of too. Very good book. Easy to understand too.

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Original post: lunukaos

[QUOTE=shinotenshi]That was the first book I thought of too. Very good book. Easy to understand too.[/QUOTE] You guys aren't talking about the DJ Conway book are you?

My suggestion is to get ahold of The Druids and Celtic Myths and Legends by Peter Berresford Ellis.

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Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=lunukaos]You guys aren't talking about the DJ Conway book are you?

My suggestion is to get ahold of The Druids and Celtic Myths and Legends by Peter Berresford Ellis.[/QUOTE]
I agree. D.J. Conway and Edain McCoy write fantasy, not history. I believe that it was one of them that was babbling about an ancient Irish potato goddess in one of their books.

Peter Berresford Ellis is a really good choice, but I also recommend H.R. Ellis Davidson and Miranda Green. I believe that there's already at least one thread on this in the Pagan Forum, although it may be archived.

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Original post: doh

DJ Conway is a good starting point, in my opinion. Only a starting point, however.

Murry Hope writes some good stuff. Not a lot of the esoteric, but some good historical stuff.

And, in your search, I would keep in mind that they aren't "Irish" per se. That will seriously diminish your search. Celtic is generally, but not always, what was practiced then, and even those roots extend elsewhere. So rather than looking for "Irish", look for "Celt". Also, you may wish to delve into the Scottish realm as the Irish and the Scottish are very closely linked when it comes to believes, even within their respective traditions due to location.

I do agree that this has been covered elsewhere, but I need to run. Don't be surprised if this topic gets merged and/or locked, though. I just, unfortunately, don't have time to do the search myself. I would suggest you peruse the various topics in the Pagan Forum as Samhain suggested.

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Original post: Winnipeg1919

DJ Conway's "Celtic Magic" is pure tripe. If you compare it to her "Norse Magic" you will find that they are virtually identical.

Conway shows no signs that she has ever read anything of Irish mythology. McCoy shows much more ability to perform research.

The starting point that I recommend is either The Tain (The Cattle Raid of Cooley) or The Battle of Moyturra. Both are primary sources of Irish Celtic Mythology. I also found "The Celts" by Nora Chadwick a useful historic / anthropologic work.

I also recommend both R. J. Stewart and Steve Blamires as authors who understand the Celtic Magick traditions.

Robert Grave "The White Goddess" is also quite useful, as long as you have read some of the source material. His flights of fancy can be quite distracting otherwise.

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Original post: Hecate's Priestess

D J Conways book is a decent beginners book...it's simple. Celtic history tends to be confusing to the beginner. I suggest doing a search, on books on Celtic history and magick, there are soooo many books to choose from, do a little research and see what tickles your fancy.

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Original post: Winnipeg1919

Conway simplifies the Celt right out. Her work shows no knowledge of the mythology, only 19th century Romanticism.

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Original post: Sidhe

---Heres a good place to start...
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/cycles.html

~~~SIDHE~~~

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Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=Winnipeg1919]DJ Conway's "Celtic Magic" is pure tripe. If you compare it to her "Norse Magic" you will find that they are virtually identical.

Conway shows no signs that she has ever read anything of Irish mythology. McCoy shows much more ability to perform research.
............
[/QUOTE]
I agree with your remarks about Conway. But for an article by R.J. Stewart that discusses, among other things, how far off base Edain McCoy is, go here.

www.dreampower.com/land.html

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Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=Winnipeg1919]
...............
I also recommend both R. J. Stewart and Steve Blamires as authors who understand the Celtic Magick traditions.
............
[/QUOTE]
Steve Blamires an author who understand the Celtic magic tradition? Excuse me while I stick my finger down my throat and vomit.

R.J. Stewart does have a lot of knowledge about ancient Celtic lore and modern magical techniques. The problem with Stewart, as I see it, is that he doesn't always tell you when he's combining actual ancient knowledge with modern speculation and/or modern magical techniques. I guess that he's trying to create an actual workable system for people to use, but I think that sometimes his stuff can be a bit misleading.

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Original post: Winnipeg1919

[QUOTE=Samhain]Steve Blamires an author who understand the Celtic magic tradition? Excuse me while I stick my finger down my throat and vomit.[/QUOTE]
We will have to agree to disagree on that one. While I have found some of his conclusions questionable, I found his esoteric exploration of the Battle of Moyturra quite interesting. After reading some of the New Age (rhymes with sewage) tripe like John O'donohue's "Anam Cara" is was like a breath of fresh air.

[QUOTE=Samhain]R.J. Stewart does have a lot of knowledge about ancient Celtic lore and modern magical techniques. The problem with Stewart, as I see it, is that he doesn't always tell you when he's combining actual ancient knowledge with modern speculation and/or modern magical techniques. I guess that he's trying to create an actual workable system for people to use, but I think that sometimes his stuff can be a bit misleading.[/QUOTE]
I don't have a problem with this. Given the amount of knowledge that has been lost or hopelessly garbled by Christianity a synthesis is necessary.

I firmly believe that the best source is the translations of the mythology and work from there. The 19th century Celtic Revivalists are terribly Romantic (such as Lady Augusta Gregory), but when combined with the Penguin and Oxford Press translations of the 20th century you get a good view of the cultural mores.

The myths also provide a fairly good idea of when they considered it appropriate to use Magick and the kinds of Work that they did. The importance of bard, as well as druids is also clear.

The major problem with anything "Celtic" since Riverdance is that pop culture has horribly debased it. This have been a problem since Ossian, but mass media has made it absurd.

Celtic lore does not sound like fractured Zen koans. Celtic music is not orchestal, it is four drunks in a kitchen.

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Original post: Hecate's Priestess

Which brings me to a very important point...nothing teaches us better than our own ancestors, our own past ; ).

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Original post: Reagun Ban

[QUOTE=endor957]i don't mean to sound off here, but what you're asking is a very hard question to answer in my book.
i mean sure, there's a new age section to everything nowadays but to understand something as culturally indepth like that would take years of study and perhaps tracing your roots would help too.
good luck[/QUOTE] I wept with joy (not really but close) when I read this, I really couldn't agree more.
The Celts all trace their family lines back to a clan of Fir Bolg, Tuatha de, Fomori or Milesians.
Find the clan that your family stems from and find a God or Goddess you identify with. Learn to speak Irish and ask them to help you "as Gaeilge".

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Original post: Rakesh

I have recently taken an university course on celtic religion and I can responsibly say that nothing Ive ever heard from neopagan/wiccan sources has any sort of relation to anything the celts did or believed.

...and of the historically recorded magical techniques possibly used by the celts, none are to be seen in wicca/any other neopagan celts-inspired path known to me.

Go figure

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Original post: Celtica

I completely agree with all of you.

1) "Celtic Magick" (the book) is Wicca with the use of Celtic Gods who are just filed under "Celtic", so Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Gaulish, and Manx Gods were all as one (which to the ancients would have been absurd). And yes, it is almost word for word like "Norse Magick"

2) Get to know more about your ancestors, weather or not you're from an Irish/Scottish/Welsh/you-get-the-idea background. The Celts did place great emphasis on who their ancestors were, and believed that they were the decendants of the Gods, and that the Gods were their great-great-great-great family, the first of their generation.

3) Read alot of Celtic Mythology and Legends. I don't recomend you go out and buy a new age/wiccan book just because it has Celtic in the title. Many of the books that are out there are just "Celtic Wicca", which, as i will state later, is nothing like what the ancient Celts believed. The Celts mirrored so many of their beliefs into their stories, and you can learn more from the story of, for example, "True Thomas" or "The Quest for Olwen" than all those "Celtic Wicca" books out there combined.
I strongly second lunukaos in choosing Peter Berris Rutherfords' "Celtic Myths and Legends". Incredable book, this man is a total genious.

4) When studying Celtic Mythology, you can't take a very light approach to it. Not that the stories are gory or gross, but because they Celts loved things that were complicated and intertwined (like their artwork), and it is very evident in their mythology. This also tells us that they probably had a very complex view of the word and all that was around them. I don't think they really believed in somthing that is straight-forward. It had to at least have a couple major twists, turns, and knots to satisfy them.

5) Like Rakesh said, the ancient Celtic religions were COMPLETELY diffrent from the modern wicca that is practiced today. The Celts didn't have things like the Four Elements, Circle Casting, Sacred Spaces, Wiccan Rede, Threefold Law, and the list goes on and on.
If you have any questions, PM me (although I'm not a genius, I'm only 15, but I'll do my best!)

Some books I highley recomend:

The Celtic Druid's Year, by John King
Celtic Myths and Legends, by Peter Berris Rutherford

You should also remember that the term "Celtic" is very broad, and many traditions fall under that. If you compare, for example, Irish Mythology with Welsh Mythology, you will see that they are two extremly diffrent sects.

I shall stop rambling now.

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Original post: Jenfucius

[QUOTE=Celtica]

You should also remember that the term "Celtic" is very broad, and many traditions fall under that
[/QUOTE]
Good point.

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Original post: Lord Misfit

I read a book a while ago called "The head of God" which was tracing Templar history from the time of Solomon and focusing on the fact that they worshipped the head of John the Baptist.I was astounded to find the severe links between Moses of all people and the forming of Ireland.It's a little off what you're talking about but it delves into the history of Gods like Bran and Scotia so it's well worth reading from a research point.being from Ireland I found it an excellent read..you should find a god or two to invoke in their.if not just invoke me for I'm the latest and greatest from our shores :-)

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Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=Lord Misfit]I read a book a while ago called "The head of God" which was tracing Templar history from the time of Solomon and focusing on the fact that they worshipped the head of John the Baptist.I was astounded to find the severe links between Moses of all people and the forming of Ireland.It's a little off what you're talking about but it delves into the history of Gods like Bran and Scotia so it's well worth reading from a research point.being from Ireland I found it an excellent read..you should find a god or two to invoke in their.if not just invoke me for I'm the latest and greatest from our shores :-)[/QUOTE]
People get all sorts of strange notions. That doesn't make it history.

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Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=Rakesh]I have recently taken an university course on celtic religion and I can responsibly say that nothing Ive ever heard from neopagan/wiccan sources has any sort of relation to anything the celts did or believed.

...and of the historically recorded magical techniques possibly used by the celts, none are to be seen in wicca/any other neopagan celts-inspired path known to me.

Go figure[/QUOTE]And how would you know this? Unless you're a time traveller, Iquestion whether you know everything that the ancient Celts did or believed. And, unless you have read a huge number of books and have become an initiate level member of several dozen Wiccan and Celtic Recon groups, I question whether you really understand what Wiccan and other Neo-Pagan groups are doing that they considered to be inspired by the Pagan Celts of the past.

Granted, there's a lot of nonsense out there, but most of it can be found in your local big box book store. And that doesn't generally have a lot to do with what the serious Celtic influenced groups are doing.

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Original post: edparadise

I have to throw in with the history versus occult knowledge bit. In what I have read, I find a great deal of disagreement and a great schism. Of course, the motives are different - a scholar is generally going to limit conclusions, while the author of a book marketed under the term "Celtic" is generally not under the same compunction - and for some reason it always seems that their "inspiration" is generally the same as what the editor's want for the $ale$.

- Generally Eddy P.

PS:

Samhain, you always crack me up.

Rakesh would "know this" because his claim was limited by the clause "known to me".

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Original post: Samhain

[QUOTE=edparadise]I have to throw in with the history versus occult knowledge bit. In what I have read, I find a great deal of disagreement and a great schism. Of course, the motives are different - a scholar is generally going to limit conclusions, while the author of a book marketed under the term "Celtic" is generally not under the same compunction - and for some reason it always seems that their "inspiration" is generally the same as what the editor's want for the $ale$.

- Generally Eddy P.

PS:

Samhain, you always crack me up.

Rakesh would "know this" because his claim was limited by the clause "known to me".[/QUOTE]
Despite the quibbles, Rakesh tries to give the impression that nothing currently being done by modern Neo-Pagan groups relates to what the Pagan Celts of the past did, which is not at all the case.

There are about three dozen reasonably large Druid and Celtic Recon groups that I personally know of, and when I visit the websites of some of the groups that are on line, they give the impression that they've done their research and know what they're doing. And of course Rakesh couldn't possibly know what the hundreds of small Celtic Recon and Celtic influenced Wiccans are doing. Nor could he know everything that the Pagan Celts of the past used to do - nobody does. And in fact some of the Recon groups give the impression that they are in fact doing some of the things that the archeologists and historians say Celtic Pagans were doing in the past, such as worshipping in nemetons and placing offerings in wells, springs, streams or lakes.

If Rakesh doesn't know of anything being done by modern Neo-Pagan groups that resembles what was done in the past, maybe he should pay more attention. Someone who's taken one university course in Celtic religion probably shouldn't be too quick to comment on the activities of Druid and Celtic Recon groups that are run by people who have post-graduate degrees in Celtic Studies and/or have decades of personal research experience in that area. Many of these people have been at it since long before Rakesh was born.