B.O.T.A. vs. Fraternity of the Hidden Light

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Frater L.E.V.

Hi

I am looking into joining an order and these are the two that stand out from the rest. for various reasons. I would just like to know if some of you have had experiences in both and how they differ in fundemental teachings. Is B.O.T.A. heavily tarot orientated while the Fraternity is more in line with Golden Dawn teachings? From their websites it seems that the fraternity of the hidden light's course is a lot more intensive while the B.O.T.A. one provides more flexibility. Am I right in this? The reason this is important to me is that I only have limited time to spend on a course but I feel it is a necessary step I need to take for my continued growth. Any advice in this respect will be greatly appreciated.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Nyghtfall

Well, I only have (a little) experience with BOTA, but I think that you can't go wrong with either of these groups. BOTA has about 13 years worth of course material, but as far as I know there's little to no ritual in it. And of course it's VERY tarot oriented, but the tarot material is a lot more interesting than you might expect. FLO is a BOTA offshoot and is based on much the same principles, but as far as I've heard they integrated more ritual in their course. It's more Golden Dawn-ish.

If you decide to sign up for one of these schools, do make sure that you can make time for the daily routine, that's so very important.

Hope this was of some help to you,
Y.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: thisisnecessary

I too am a bit interested in this. Maybe not anytime soon, as I've got other things going on, but I am wondering how the teaching system works. Excuse my ignorance, but I thought I read somewhere a while back that the course material was mailed to you. There are no group rituals? Not that I am opposed to it, I like the sound of personal study, seems like you can go at your own pace maybe?

That's good for people with a fluctuating schedule like me, plus I've already had some difficulties because of my new duties this year as a new officer in my Masonic lodge, personal study, setting up a second job, making time for my girlfriend, playing in a band...things can get hectic. Plus I am currently going through the long process of an extensive background check with plenty of tests and paperwork to eventually become a Corrections Officer. Should I just put off my interest in the BOTA if I am not going to be able to work at my own slower pace?
And does the FOHL differ in its course of instruction at all in terms of regimenting lessons, or can both of these be a personal study?

sorry for the barrage of questions but I am quite curious for anyone who is a member of either of these.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: KoningKaas

I am also interested in the BOTA, reqeusted theyre Open Door booklet, Anyone has anymore thoughts on this group/school?

*BUMP*

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

Well, heres a basic rundown:

BOTA was founded by Paul Foster Case and continues to be run by people like him. As long as he likes it, he mastered it. That being said-he was a bit of an eccentric, running around saying "this is evil! that is evil! Don't use pranayama, its evil! don't use enochian, its evil!" the School itself is in the Golden Dawn vein, but with his own (and subsequent members after) revelations added. You can learn a TON from them, about Tarot, about Qabalah. Its a good place. but almost all forms of ceremonial magic have been tossed to the wind (aside from what Mr Case felt was "necessary" and "good"). BOTA has a very christian overtone to it as well-depending on how you feel about that.

Fraternity of L.V.X was started by someone who made the highest grade of BOTA, took the knowledge he had from there, and then re-added everything Mr. Case thought was "evil" (including ceremonial magic) as well as his own revelations. This has less of a christian tone-and it more of your standard Rosy-Cross mystery school.

By the way-you can always contact the Schools themselves, which is really ideal. Both of them have extremely helpful people who are more than willing to share whatever information you are looking for.

Blessings in the Work!

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought I read somewhere a while back that the course material was mailed to you. There are no group rituals? Not that I am opposed to it, I like the sound of personal study, seems like you can go at your own pace maybe?

Both Schools use correspondance. Upon higher grades and after a "review" of whether you are the "right kind of person"-you can take part in group workings with either group.

Both schools allow you to work at your own pace-so either one is ideal for you, Sir.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Ronin

Banishinglies this is not an attack on you or anything like that, I just think I should clear some things up that you said, so that it does not confuse anyone that may be interested in BOTA or FLO. First off I am a member of both organizations, and I cannot recommend them highly enough. I would like to say that Paul Foster Case was far from being an eccentric person, who thought this and that was evil. He did feel that Enochian was responsible for the death of his friend Michael Whitty, but I think that he also felt that Enochian was irrelevent for spiritual development, and could possibly lead a person to become unbalanced and delusional. He was not the only one to feel that Enochian was not important in spiritual growth, here is a great viewpoint from Rawn Clark, an adept from the Bardon tradition- A Bardon Companion: Correspondence - 52, it is a tad long sorry. Paul Foster Case did not feel that ceremonial magic was "evil", it is another thing that I feel he thought was not completely essential for spiritual growth. Ritual work helps raise the consciousness of the magician through its use of symbols, but the symbols have no inherent power within themselves. The power comes from the magician's mind alone, group or solo initiations do not "initiate" someone, all that the rituals can do is prepare the magician to receive the inner initiation, which in essence is a "gift from above". So even though BOTA has no ritual work within its correspondence lessons, if they are followed closely enough, and with heart and dedication, they can lead the aspirant towards that inner initiation. BOTA does have ritual work for members at their main temple, but not within the correspondence lessons. Paul A. Clark left BOTA to form FLO and allowed Probationers (correspondence members) more access to ritual work, also FLO has more Lodges which allow Probationers to apply for membership within a Lodge in order to work a GD style grade system. FLO from what I know so far, in keeping with the tradition of Paul Foster Case, does not use Enochian magic. Also BOTA and FLO are no more "Christian" in their tone than most other organizations with the Western Mystery Tradition. Without it's Judeo-Christian heritage the WMT would be practically empty. That is just my two cents, hope I didn't leave anything out or confuse anyone even more.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

Umm, not attacking you or anything.

But allow me to clear some things up, so no ones confused who may want to know the whole truth:

Without it's Judeo-Christian heritage the WMT would be practically empty

thats just plain silly, while I agree that it plays its part-it is not the "fullness" of the system to that if you removed it it would be empty as you mentioned. Unless you are going on to say that QBL is judeo-christian, but whether or not it started in those circles, it can and has evolved beyond them. And I know of more than a few traditions that don't even use that. Just because BOTA or FLO might use it, doesn't mean its used everywhere in the west or that its "right". and just beause the BOTA or FLO might be "practically empty" without christianity, doesn't mean that the entire WMT would be.

I would like to say that Paul Foster Case was far from being an eccentric person

I had in my possession a correspondance of Mr Case's, where he experimented with pranayama, had a bad experience, and then suggested that no one should do any breathing exercises. Just because you have bad experience, doesn't mean that it should be dropped by others who have had wonderful experience. Same goes for Enochian. When I find the correspondance i'll be glad to post it.

Paul Foster Case did not feel that ceremonial magic was "evil", it is another thing that I feel he thought was not completely essential for spiritual growth.

I didn't say he said ceremonial was evil

but almost all forms of ceremonial magic have been tossed to the wind (

/\/\thats what I said.

he indeed did say that enochian was evil, and the funny thing is, the ritual and pentagrams he uses are all based off the enochian system! Mathers wrote his entire curriculum based upon the Enochian tablets!!! and Case worked the GD and carried it over to BOTA.

Also BOTA and FLO are no more "Christian" in their tone than most other organizations with the Western Mystery Tradition.

hehe: "Like Jesus, who many believe was trained in Qabalah..." right off the front page of the website.

If they aren't more christian, then they certainly are marketing towards them.

Builders of the Adytum (B.O.T.A.) is a religious non-profit, tax-exempt, California Corporation.

they are one of the ONLY mystery schools I know (and I've research a BUNCH) that call themselves RELIGIOUS too.

But that being said, I did mention how you could learn a ton from BOTA, and I do respect the organization, I just pointed out what I found to be lacking in their system-Ceremonial Magic! and its funny:

group or solo initiations do not "initiate" someone,

so people have been doing it for 1000's of years on end for no reason? Shucks! If they only knew better

While I agree that without the foundation work the initiation could be worthless, but to say that a ceremony can't initiate you shows a lack of experience!

that being said. BOTA teaches a whole lot, but as we see-they leave out ceremonial magic, since this was posted in the CEREMONIAL MAGIC forum-I definitely found it relevant to mention that-especially sicne they don't!

I wasn't calling Paul Case a full out eccentric, he was a wise man (rest his soul), he added a lot of strong thought to the WMT, and was definitely an experienced occultist, but he was eccentric towards things he didn't like-rather than attack things you don't like (as evidenced by his letters to others), just leave them alone. Thats best.


Edited to give an example: Johnny joins the BOTA, because its so "welcoming" and "talks about Jesus" he learns the WMT in the BOTA format. He studies Paul Foster Case's work and finds out what he says/thinks about Enochian/Ceremonial magic. He altogether avoids using them due to what hes been taught. He never gets that "inner initiation" he so longed for because in "past lives" he was a ceremonialist and needed that to get in touch with his Divine Spark. In another world, where Johnny was a little wiser and made sure he got all the information, Johnny picked up Ceremonial Magic and received an "outer initiation" that provided exactly what he needed to get the "inner initiation" according to Hermeticism (that which is without is also that which is within). Wow!

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

and again:

By the way-you can always contact the Schools themselves, which is really ideal. Both of them have extremely helpful people who are more than willing to share whatever information you are looking for.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Ronin

I think we should be as clear as possible when we talk about initiation. Initiation takes place only within our self, physical initiations only help us prepare for the inner contact. When we work through a graded system of instruction, such the Rosicrucian grade system for instance. The seed for each grade is planted within us, but only we can make it bloom. The monks on Mount Athos for instance, even though they are given an elder and work in a community, they know and understand that only through the grace of God and Lord Jesus Christ can Theosis be obtained. Even if their elder has obtained Theosis himself and is considered by the other monks as a "living saint", the elder can only provide guidance and not the gift.

P.S. That was just an example, and not a suggestion that a Christian belief is the only way to God.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

I agree that initiation only occurs within you, but to deny the Hermetic Philosophy is indeed to deny the "fullness" of the WMT.

that being said, lets take some Christian examples of the VALUE and NECESSITY of an "outer initiation"

Mark 10:16
And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them

Acts 8:18
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostlesâ?? hands. he offered them money,

Acts 9:17
So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him. he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

2 Timothy 1:6
For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,.


This is practiced in the Orthodox churches to this day, and is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, which of course, must then be developed by the individual, as these scriptures testify.

it is the same with occultism.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Ronin

Edited to give an example: Johnny joins the BOTA, because its so "welcoming" and "talks about Jesus" he learns the WMT in the BOTA format. He studies Paul Foster Case's work and finds out what he says/thinks about Enochian/Ceremonial magic. He altogether avoids using them due to what hes been taught. He never gets that "inner initiation" he so longed for because in "past lives" he was a ceremonialist and needed that to get in touch with his Divine Spark. In another world, where Johnny was a little wiser and made sure he got all the information, Johnny picked up Ceremonial Magic and received an "outer initiation" that provided exactly what he needed to get the "inner initiation" according to Hermeticism (that which is without is also that which is within). Wow!

You do not have to study Enochian or Ceremonial magic to receive the "inner initiation", regardless if that was what you happened to study in your past life.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

No you don't, but that might have been his "key", what works for one doesn't for the other, and vice versa

p.s. see above for outer initiation in christian context.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

14Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostlesâ?? hands, he offered them money, 19saying, "Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

We see here many people who "believed" and were taught the faith, but they didn't receive the holy spirit until they were "INITIATED" by Peter and John through the laying on of their hands.

Edit: If we are to believe the bible, then the only way to receive the gift of God is through a valid initiation which comes from apostolic succession

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Ronin

I agree that initiation only occurs within you, but to deny the Hermetic Philosophy is indeed to deny the "fullness" of the WMT.

that being said, lets take some Christian examples of the VALUE and NECESSITY of an "outer initiation"

Mark 10:16
And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them

Acts 8:18
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostlesâ?? hands. he offered them money,

Acts 9:17
So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him. he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

2 Timothy 1:6
For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands,.


This is practiced in the Orthodox churches to this day, and is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit, which of course, must then be developed by the individual, as these scriptures testify.

it is the same with occultism.

I understand that you are not familiar with Athonite spirituality which in of itself, especially beneath the surface, is a lot different than that which is practiced by your average Orthodox church. Let me suggest to you two books to read "A Different Christianity" by Robin Amis, and "Theosis" by Archimandrite George Capsanis, Abbot of the monastery of Saint Gregory on Mount Athos. Please let us not bicker on irrelevant things, or bring the Bible into this. I agree with you completely that Hermeticism is extremely important within the WMT. I also feel that if you take out either Hermeticism or the Judeo-Christian concepts you are missing out on the richness of the WMT.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

I'm not bickering, I'm using Christianity to show the value, validility, and necessity of Initiation, you said your purpose is to avoid confusion, therefore to speak the truth-and this is doubly my purpose.

If the apostles believed that the only way to receive the holy spirit was through the laying on of hands (INITIATION!), then how may we overturn it?

And if we use correspondance, occult initiation is to awake the DIVINE SPARK within you (the reception of the "HOLY SPIRIT") which again is acheived through learning, foundation work and a valid initiation given by those who have received their own. This has been concurrent since before Christianity. How may we overturn that?

Yes-you're progress and the initiations effect are completely dependant upon the individual, but to say that "initiation isn't necessary" or that "receiving initiation from another individual isn't a real initiation" makes the bible, and especially more important to this discussion, OCCULT TRADITION! invalid.


and the monastery you mention is a part of the ORTHODOX TRADITION! therefore, whoever attended this monastery, received the Laying of hands (initiation!) and then sought to "fan the flame" as Paul stated, of the Gift of God whcih is only received through initiation-as Paul stated again

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Ronin

I'm not bickering, I'm using Christianity to show the value, validility, and necessity of Initiation, you said your purpose is to avoid confusion, therefore to speak the truth-and this is doubly my purpose.

If the apostles believed that the only way to receive the holy spirit was through the laying on of hands (INITIATION!), then how may we overturn it?

And if we use correspondance, occult initiation is to awake the DIVINE SPARK within you (the reception of the "HOLY SPIRIT") which again is acheived through learning, foundation work and a valid initiation given by those who have received their own. This has been concurrent since before Christianity. How may we overturn that?

Yes-you're progress and the initiations effect are completely dependant upon the individual, but to say that "initiation isn't necessary" or that "receiving initiation from another individual isn't a real initiation" makes the bible, and especially more important to this discussion, OCCULT TRADITION! invalid.

The laying of hands does not confer the Holy Spirit only the Grace of God can do that. Initiation can help prepare but does not confer.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

wheres your sources? All of history is mine. The monastery you mention is part of the Orthodox tradition, and therefore, each one of the members RECEIVED A VALID INITIATION before becoming a member of the monastery!

the grace of God within you needs be awakened by initiation, then to be developed by individual work!

its true in the bible, its true in christianity, and its double true in occultism.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: Ronin

I just want to readdress what my view to the original topic was, so this is not carried out through more pages than necessary. As a member of BOTA and FLO, I wanted to say that we are not any more Christian than you would find in your typical GD organization. In a nutshell the Enochian and Ceremonial magic was dropped as it was seen as unnecessary for spiritual development. If that is your thing, than "Go get them Tiger." I also just wanted to say that true spiritual initiation takes place within us. All of our study, reading, and lodge or self-styled initiations, they only prepare us for the real initiation that is a gift of grace from the Divine.

[Occult Forum Archive]

Original post: banishinglies

And I just wanted to use a quote from a most respected, and dearly departed member of our forum:

Instead of attempting to FIT THE FACTS into your perception of Magick why don't you EXPAND YOUR PERCEPTION to fit the Magickal facts.

[bawnaw]

Hi Ronin,
Nice synthesis. I concur with your view on initiation.
I understand that you belong to BOTA, FLO and FRC. In this regard, I wanted to ask you whether FLO ritual work confers the Rosicrucian Degrees. I found a podcast online where Paul A. Clark discusses the Rosicrucian degrees of the first order (1-4). Unfortunately I couldn't listen to the podcast as the website requests you to buy a $8 membership in order to access the content. In short, this made me suspect that perhaps FLO works these degrees. Is this correct? If not, could you offer some information about the work of the Rosicrucian degrees within the FRC?

Please advise.

[fraTAS]

Care Fraters & Sorores on the Path,

That's my first post in this fora and I would like to say that even thought I already have many years of investigation and practice in mysticism & magic and having trying the Golden Dawn system I was very disappointed when realised what is the core of the GD. On the other hand I was fascinated by the writings of Paul Foster Case regarding the WMT which compels me to continue to try to find an order or school that really has any real connection with the Rosicrucian Tradition.

As I found that the Fraternity of the Hidden Light kept their teachings closed based on Paul's teachings I decided to go deeper into it. I think that this path is part of mine.

But first of all, I need to know if their initiation into the First Order has anything to do with the initiation provided by SOL (Dolores), because it scared me out of my wits! Please refer to my post: http://www.occultforum.org/forum/viewto ... 28#p475028. If anyone has any experience on that please advise.

In LVX

[bawnaw]

Hello FraTAs

You did not mention what you found at the core of GD that you did not accept. Regarding FLO, it does follow the system set out by PFC. The best way to clear up your doubts and see if their system is of interest to you is to join their outer organization as a (mail-in) Probationer and study and practice their introductory material. If you feel that is the the system for you then you can pursue it further.
Hope it helps.
In LVX.

[fraTAS]

Fra Bawmaw,

That's exactly what I did a couple months ago. I plied to the Probationer and was accepted. However after receiving the second lesson my tutor (Fra S.I.A.) sent me a message telling me that my membership was terminated without any explanation. I was really shocked by the outcome since I was very enthusiastic about my studies and was doing all my readings & assignments as required. At moment I am in contact with the Preceptor of the West which is passing my claim to review my membership status to the Grand Preceptor.

I sincerely hope that I can resume my studies as soon as possible!

I am a sincere admirer of Paul Foster Case works, particularly The True and Invisible Rosicrucian Order, which is the most beautiful insight into the R+C grades.

In LVX