Original post: priority
Hi
I've been practicing the LBRP for about 3 weeks.
I've been doing it once every day.
I believe the next logical step is for me to learn the Middle Pillar Ritual
However I read this, which has kinda discouraged me:
The student should have arrived at a fair understand ing of himself, his motives, and the mechanism of his mind, and integrated himself more or less thoroughly so that no dissociation or serious neurosis exists within the psyche. For the presence of a powerful complex of associated ideas in the unconscious, or a marked dissociation splitting off one part of the psyche from the other, will have the effect of short-circuiting the flow of energy generated or released by the Middle Pillar. An explosion in the form of a complete nervous breakdown, or even of the destruction of mental stability, will be a likely result. Many instances have been known of unprepared students contracting fatal physical illnesses through attempting work of this nature, though this is more true where Eastern exercises have been unwisely attempted. Some of these unfortunates, when the dis sociation was rendered complete, have succumbed to chronic melancholia or taken their own lives. These warnings are not intended to be portentous or terrifying, but only to impress upon the student the solemnity of these undertakings, a journey of self-conquest than which nothing could compare in importance or seriousness.
Thats from Regardies Middle Pillar book
What do you guys think?
After reading that, I'm a little reluctant to try the Middle Pillar. I don't want to be fucked up for life haha
Advice and opinions are greatly appreciated
Middle Pillar Ritual: Dangers
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Original post: Frater C.U.G.
A basic rule of thumb.
If you think you may not be ready for any magical act... your not.
Take your time, it is not a race.
A basic rule of thumb.
If you think you may not be ready for any magical act... your not.
Take your time, it is not a race.
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Original post: DropAndRiver
Honestly, take whatever time you need; it will take an eternity, anyway. Knowing that kinda eases up the pressure lol.
If there was a high risk of danger in the MP... a lot more people would be experiencing it.
Honestly, take whatever time you need; it will take an eternity, anyway. Knowing that kinda eases up the pressure lol.
If there was a high risk of danger in the MP... a lot more people would be experiencing it.
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Original post: Marquise De Sade
You should take your time and practice the LBRP more if you think your not ready. If your willing on starting now then maybe you should take the MIddle Pillar step by step. First get use to visualizing the chakras with white light, and inhaling watching it vanish in the end. Then move to changing it with the appropriate color correspondnce. Then move on to the circulation of the body of light. Take your time though since your using a great deal of energy during this ritual.
You should take your time and practice the LBRP more if you think your not ready. If your willing on starting now then maybe you should take the MIddle Pillar step by step. First get use to visualizing the chakras with white light, and inhaling watching it vanish in the end. Then move to changing it with the appropriate color correspondnce. Then move on to the circulation of the body of light. Take your time though since your using a great deal of energy during this ritual.
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Original post: Fr.NovumOrganum
Thanks for the posting.
First, Regardie was one of the leading proponents of the psychological basis of magick, ie magick as a psycho-analytic system. While I'm a huge fan of this position 9and Regardie), its not always as cut and dry as Regardie makes it seem. Magick will enable the working out of personality formation issues, over the long haul, just as psychotherapy or chemognosis will. The point of the warning is that the magickian must be ready to face these issues, for they will arise as a result of magick in a number of forms.
That is why Regardie and all other magickians make self-awarness, self knowledge the cornerstones of the greatwork. Without this knowledge, the real gains of magick may be lost, and the power raised may be connected to the wrong things, like ego inflation, monomania etc.
sorry for the rushed post. see his intro to his GD for a better essay on this. But don't worry the MP is one of the most benifical excercises available.
PS...the Qabbalsitic Cross will be a great defense/grounding ritual to prevent much of this. There are very good reasons the QC bookends many rituals....
Thanks for the posting.
First, Regardie was one of the leading proponents of the psychological basis of magick, ie magick as a psycho-analytic system. While I'm a huge fan of this position 9and Regardie), its not always as cut and dry as Regardie makes it seem. Magick will enable the working out of personality formation issues, over the long haul, just as psychotherapy or chemognosis will. The point of the warning is that the magickian must be ready to face these issues, for they will arise as a result of magick in a number of forms.
That is why Regardie and all other magickians make self-awarness, self knowledge the cornerstones of the greatwork. Without this knowledge, the real gains of magick may be lost, and the power raised may be connected to the wrong things, like ego inflation, monomania etc.
sorry for the rushed post. see his intro to his GD for a better essay on this. But don't worry the MP is one of the most benifical excercises available.
PS...the Qabbalsitic Cross will be a great defense/grounding ritual to prevent much of this. There are very good reasons the QC bookends many rituals....
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Original post: Specktackular
That scared me off at first, too. Then you have to wonder: why would MPR be dangerous? People generally laughed it off when I mentioned it here about a year ago. Someone said it was very mild and that if I had problems with it I might as well give up right now. This I found interesting since it's obviously supposed to be very powerful and important ritual.
EDIT: I just realized I"m being boring. If anyone would like to hear my modified MPR LBRP stuff, pm me. It does not belong here.
That scared me off at first, too. Then you have to wonder: why would MPR be dangerous? People generally laughed it off when I mentioned it here about a year ago. Someone said it was very mild and that if I had problems with it I might as well give up right now. This I found interesting since it's obviously supposed to be very powerful and important ritual.
EDIT: I just realized I"m being boring. If anyone would like to hear my modified MPR LBRP stuff, pm me. It does not belong here.
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Original post: Grab
Regardie cracks me up sometimes!
What else IS there in the unconscious but complexes of associated ideas?
[QUOTE=Regardie]or a marked dissociation splitting off one part of the psyche from the other, will have the effect of short-circuiting the flow of energy generated or released by the Middle Pillar. An explosion in the form of a complete nervous breakdown, or even of the destruction of mental stability, will be a likely result. [/QUOTE]
Please note that he writes "likely", that is, he's only guessing.
[QUOTE=Regardie]Many instances have been known of unprepared students contracting fatal physical illnesses through attempting work of this nature, though this is more true where Eastern exercises have been unwisely attempted.[/QUOTE]
First he makes the illformed logic of observing causality where such might or might not exist, and second he admits it was a completely different exercise.
[QUOTE=Regardie]solemnity of these undertakings, a journey of self-conquest than which nothing could compare in importance or seriousness.
[/QUOTE]
According to whom and what value hierarchy does that author have? Not necessarily the same as we do, right?
BTW, did anyone ever read about him performing any "real" magick? I mean, outside all this - wonderful as it might be - potentially hallucinatory self-help magick?
(Edit: "real" means just "practical real world results in Assiah/Malkuth magick".)
I think there is power in the MP but also that when you are a beginner you won't be able to get it powerful enough to hurt you anyway.
(EDIT: Can a moderator please explain/modify the quotes above that don't work?)
Regardie cracks me up sometimes!
For the presence of a powerful complex of associated ideas in the unconscious[/QUOTE]Regardie wrote:
What else IS there in the unconscious but complexes of associated ideas?
[QUOTE=Regardie]or a marked dissociation splitting off one part of the psyche from the other, will have the effect of short-circuiting the flow of energy generated or released by the Middle Pillar. An explosion in the form of a complete nervous breakdown, or even of the destruction of mental stability, will be a likely result. [/QUOTE]
Please note that he writes "likely", that is, he's only guessing.
[QUOTE=Regardie]Many instances have been known of unprepared students contracting fatal physical illnesses through attempting work of this nature, though this is more true where Eastern exercises have been unwisely attempted.[/QUOTE]
First he makes the illformed logic of observing causality where such might or might not exist, and second he admits it was a completely different exercise.
[QUOTE=Regardie]solemnity of these undertakings, a journey of self-conquest than which nothing could compare in importance or seriousness.
[/QUOTE]
According to whom and what value hierarchy does that author have? Not necessarily the same as we do, right?
BTW, did anyone ever read about him performing any "real" magick? I mean, outside all this - wonderful as it might be - potentially hallucinatory self-help magick?
(Edit: "real" means just "practical real world results in Assiah/Malkuth magick".)
What do you guys think?
I think there is power in the MP but also that when you are a beginner you won't be able to get it powerful enough to hurt you anyway.
(EDIT: Can a moderator please explain/modify the quotes above that don't work?)
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Original post: palindroem
Well, I won't be as forward as to slander an admitted adept . . . Regardie is certainly that.
But, althought the MP can have some potentially difficult or even dangerous side-effect . . . its still probably one of the most important ritual to start practicing.
That said, you should continue to work on the LBRP until you can perform it without any memory-aids before starting the MP. Both of these rituals are very subtle in thier effect, so don't worry too much about horrible results.
As well, if you do start to have psycho/spiritual problems, you can always stop.
(just as a side note, three weeks isn't really all that long . . . )
(this really probably belongs in the beginners forum)
Well, I won't be as forward as to slander an admitted adept . . . Regardie is certainly that.
But, althought the MP can have some potentially difficult or even dangerous side-effect . . . its still probably one of the most important ritual to start practicing.
That said, you should continue to work on the LBRP until you can perform it without any memory-aids before starting the MP. Both of these rituals are very subtle in thier effect, so don't worry too much about horrible results.
As well, if you do start to have psycho/spiritual problems, you can always stop.
(just as a side note, three weeks isn't really all that long . . . )
(this really probably belongs in the beginners forum)
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Original post: priority
Thanks for the advice
I think I'll keep doing the LBRP for another month or so. Should I learn the LBRH before I attempt the middle pillar?
Actually, I have a question about the LBRP...
About a week ago, after I had finished calling the names of the ages, i got a tingling sensation by my shoulders and chest. A real nice feeling. I assumed I was gaining proficiency in the ritual..
It also happened the following day. But now, 5 days later, I haven't experienced it again. I don't know why...i'm doing everything the same... i'm worried that I was performing the ritual correctly and now i'm back on the wrong path, as it were...
Cheers in advance
Thanks for the advice
I think I'll keep doing the LBRP for another month or so. Should I learn the LBRH before I attempt the middle pillar?
Actually, I have a question about the LBRP...
About a week ago, after I had finished calling the names of the ages, i got a tingling sensation by my shoulders and chest. A real nice feeling. I assumed I was gaining proficiency in the ritual..
It also happened the following day. But now, 5 days later, I haven't experienced it again. I don't know why...i'm doing everything the same... i'm worried that I was performing the ritual correctly and now i'm back on the wrong path, as it were...
Cheers in advance
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Original post: Radiant Star
Hopefully you are keeping a journal/record/dirary of your experiences, you will notice that things do differ according to time of day, state of mind, weather etc and that is normal.
I would leave the LBRH for a while and if you feel drawn to doing the MP then do it; I did my first MP within a couple of weeks of starting to ritual and had no problems with it.
There is no hurry, it is better to enjoy your development than to feel you have to be constantly jumping fences.
Hopefully you are keeping a journal/record/dirary of your experiences, you will notice that things do differ according to time of day, state of mind, weather etc and that is normal.
I would leave the LBRH for a while and if you feel drawn to doing the MP then do it; I did my first MP within a couple of weeks of starting to ritual and had no problems with it.
There is no hurry, it is better to enjoy your development than to feel you have to be constantly jumping fences.
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Original post: Skeptismo118
Why might Regardie think that the Middle Pillar could be dangerous to those without a certain level of self-knowledge?
Because he was essentially a Reichian. If you have a lot of body armoring from past traumas that you have not managed to address circulating bio-psychic energy through your system will simply overload it.
Want a way around this?
Pick up Christopher Hytatt's _Undoing Yourself With Energized Meditation_ and do the exercises. They're designed to help release body armoring and free up the flow of energy in your system. You might also consider finding someone you can discuss deeply personal things with regularly.
Why might Regardie think that the Middle Pillar could be dangerous to those without a certain level of self-knowledge?
Because he was essentially a Reichian. If you have a lot of body armoring from past traumas that you have not managed to address circulating bio-psychic energy through your system will simply overload it.
Want a way around this?
Pick up Christopher Hytatt's _Undoing Yourself With Energized Meditation_ and do the exercises. They're designed to help release body armoring and free up the flow of energy in your system. You might also consider finding someone you can discuss deeply personal things with regularly.
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Original post: Nero
[QUOTE=Grab] I think there is power in the MP but also that when you are a beginner you won't be able to get it powerful enough to hurt you anyway.[/quote]
I have to agree with Grab on this point. The MP is a very powerful ritual but it takes time and practice to realize it's true potential. You have to learn how to feel and manipulate the energy. This would be the first step before you begin to align yourself along the tree of life and the divine.
Regardie was mainly speaking about opeing those centers up and having them pump energy into your system before you have direct routes to keep a blow out from happening. I have never had a problem with the MP but I have had problems from too much energy in my system. You have to ground and ground soon. Too much of a good thing is not good. My advise take it slow. Use the circulation of body light early to learn the movement and you will be fine.
[QUOTE=Grab] BTW, did anyone ever read about him performing any real magick? I mean, outside all this - wonderful as it might be - potentially hallucinatory self-help magick?[/QUOTE]
I am a little offended by this comment. What do you mean by real magick? Are you suggesting using Magick for spiritual and personal growth is an illusion? That the only non-hullucinatrory and real magick is when you use it to gain money or get laid?
[QUOTE=Grab] I think there is power in the MP but also that when you are a beginner you won't be able to get it powerful enough to hurt you anyway.[/quote]
I have to agree with Grab on this point. The MP is a very powerful ritual but it takes time and practice to realize it's true potential. You have to learn how to feel and manipulate the energy. This would be the first step before you begin to align yourself along the tree of life and the divine.
Regardie was mainly speaking about opeing those centers up and having them pump energy into your system before you have direct routes to keep a blow out from happening. I have never had a problem with the MP but I have had problems from too much energy in my system. You have to ground and ground soon. Too much of a good thing is not good. My advise take it slow. Use the circulation of body light early to learn the movement and you will be fine.
[QUOTE=Grab] BTW, did anyone ever read about him performing any real magick? I mean, outside all this - wonderful as it might be - potentially hallucinatory self-help magick?[/QUOTE]
I am a little offended by this comment. What do you mean by real magick? Are you suggesting using Magick for spiritual and personal growth is an illusion? That the only non-hullucinatrory and real magick is when you use it to gain money or get laid?
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Original post: Grab
[QUOTE=Nero]
I am a little offended by this comment. What do you mean by real magick? Are you suggesting using Magick for spiritual and personal growth is an illusion? That the only non-hullucinatrory and real magick is when you use it to gain money or get laid?[/QUOTE] I made a mistake; I meant to write "practical results magick" and not "real" magick.
I never said that magick for personal growth has to be an illusion, why then would I be so involved in it? I said that it is potentially illusory - if you never test and verify the magick with real world results.
[QUOTE=Nero]
I am a little offended by this comment. What do you mean by real magick? Are you suggesting using Magick for spiritual and personal growth is an illusion? That the only non-hullucinatrory and real magick is when you use it to gain money or get laid?[/QUOTE] I made a mistake; I meant to write "practical results magick" and not "real" magick.
I never said that magick for personal growth has to be an illusion, why then would I be so involved in it? I said that it is potentially illusory - if you never test and verify the magick with real world results.
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Original post: Specktackular
Real world results: breaking addiction, overcoming shyness, mental clarity, emotional control, peace of mind.
Real world results: breaking addiction, overcoming shyness, mental clarity, emotional control, peace of mind.
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Original post: Grab
Five excellent examples of psychological results: indeed a nice subset of real world results, but not the complete set.
Five excellent examples of psychological results: indeed a nice subset of real world results, but not the complete set.
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Original post: Crucible of Light
There are lots of people being comforting here, which is all very well and good. But I tend to think that it's a little misguided. All sorts of things that can go wrong in energy-raising style work - do a google on kundalini trauma if you'd like a whole lot of examples. Headaches, intense and overwhelming heat, twisting pain, seizures and psychosis are all possible side effects of this type of work.
There are lots of 'fluffy' people and books who teach things like kundalini yoga, chakra exercises and holotropic breathwork who never mention possible negative side effects - this is indicative that they really haven't had a lot of experience, IMHO. It does no-one any good to gloss over the possible negative repurcussions - they are real.
There are lots of people being comforting here, which is all very well and good. But I tend to think that it's a little misguided. All sorts of things that can go wrong in energy-raising style work - do a google on kundalini trauma if you'd like a whole lot of examples. Headaches, intense and overwhelming heat, twisting pain, seizures and psychosis are all possible side effects of this type of work.
There are lots of 'fluffy' people and books who teach things like kundalini yoga, chakra exercises and holotropic breathwork who never mention possible negative side effects - this is indicative that they really haven't had a lot of experience, IMHO. It does no-one any good to gloss over the possible negative repurcussions - they are real.
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Original post: Sauriel
Greetings priority,
My personal experiences with the middle pillar ritual have over all been positive, however there have been a few times I've felt something wrong in the performance, the results tended to be a sense of unease for the rest of the day and extreme fluxes of energy. The worst case resulted an instant swelling of the throat that lasted a few days.
In my own experience if you staop the moment you feel something is wrong, there is little or no side effect, it was only when I continued after feeling a problem with the ritual that I experienced any negative effects.
While I'm not an expert, I would suggest taking it slow as others here have stated and if you feel something is wrong, then stop.
Regards
Greetings priority,
My personal experiences with the middle pillar ritual have over all been positive, however there have been a few times I've felt something wrong in the performance, the results tended to be a sense of unease for the rest of the day and extreme fluxes of energy. The worst case resulted an instant swelling of the throat that lasted a few days.
In my own experience if you staop the moment you feel something is wrong, there is little or no side effect, it was only when I continued after feeling a problem with the ritual that I experienced any negative effects.
While I'm not an expert, I would suggest taking it slow as others here have stated and if you feel something is wrong, then stop.
Regards
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Original post: priority
Thanks everyone
I guess my next question would be 'how do I know I am ready for the MPR?'
Also, if I started it, and something did go wrong, what should I do?
Thanks everyone
I guess my next question would be 'how do I know I am ready for the MPR?'
Also, if I started it, and something did go wrong, what should I do?
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Original post: Specktackular
[QUOTE=Grab]Five excellent examples of psychological results: indeed a nice subset of real world results, but not the complete set.[/QUOTE]
I am the one who makes the grass green. :lol:
[QUOTE=Grab]Five excellent examples of psychological results: indeed a nice subset of real world results, but not the complete set.
[/QUOTE] I am the one who makes the grass green. :lol:
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Original post: Skeptismo118
No, it's horse poop that makes the grass green.
No, it's horse poop that makes the grass green.
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Original post: Specktackular
I am the one that makes the horse poop.
I am the one that makes the horse poop.
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Original post: Uncle Fritz
This is slightly off topic, and for that I apologize.
I notice that in Regardie's instructions for the MPR, he doesn't use the final H (heh) in YHVH. Is there a reason for this? Others (Kraig, for instance) do include it. I have been using/vibrating it, but I am interested why he has left it out. It seems to me that the second H is there for a reason, but this is Regardie we are talking about so there must be a method to his madness, no?
Any ideas? Mmothra? I am sure that Regardie probably explains the reason in his book, but I can't get past the Ciceros and their "editing". But that is a whole other issue!
This is slightly off topic, and for that I apologize.
I notice that in Regardie's instructions for the MPR, he doesn't use the final H (heh) in YHVH. Is there a reason for this? Others (Kraig, for instance) do include it. I have been using/vibrating it, but I am interested why he has left it out. It seems to me that the second H is there for a reason, but this is Regardie we are talking about so there must be a method to his madness, no?
Any ideas? Mmothra? I am sure that Regardie probably explains the reason in his book, but I can't get past the Ciceros and their "editing". But that is a whole other issue!
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Original post: Specktackular
The Cicero's do point out that Regardie uses different pronunciations sometimes and that he is about the only one who was really doing that, almost even back then. Based on my library, I'd say they're right. He chose to go against the grain, apparently. I'd go with the popular spellings/pronunciations found just about everywhere else.
The Cicero's do point out that Regardie uses different pronunciations sometimes and that he is about the only one who was really doing that, almost even back then. Based on my library, I'd say they're right. He chose to go against the grain, apparently. I'd go with the popular spellings/pronunciations found just about everywhere else.
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Original post: Fernpattern
Regardie believed in pschotherapy. I also believe this is because of his Riechian training. I recommend the undoing yourself CD's by C S Hyatt. He has some interesting words to say on this matter.
Regardie believed in pschotherapy. I also believe this is because of his Riechian training. I recommend the undoing yourself CD's by C S Hyatt. He has some interesting words to say on this matter.
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Original post: Gavriel
[QUOTE=palindroem]Well, I won't be as forward as to slander an admitted adept . . . Regardie is certainly that.
But, althought the MP can have some potentially difficult or even dangerous side-effect . . . its still probably one of the most important ritual to start practicing.
That said, you should continue to work on the LBRP until you can perform it without any memory-aids before starting the MP. Both of these rituals are very subtle in thier effect, so don't worry too much about horrible results.
As well, if you do start to have psycho/spiritual problems, you can always stop.
(just as a side note, three weeks isn't really all that long . . . )
(this really probably belongs in the beginners forum)[/QUOTE] Sorry to get off topic, but how long is long for you? -laughs-
Have fun dude.
Peace.
[QUOTE=palindroem]Well, I won't be as forward as to slander an admitted adept . . . Regardie is certainly that.
But, althought the MP can have some potentially difficult or even dangerous side-effect . . . its still probably one of the most important ritual to start practicing.
That said, you should continue to work on the LBRP until you can perform it without any memory-aids before starting the MP. Both of these rituals are very subtle in thier effect, so don't worry too much about horrible results.
As well, if you do start to have psycho/spiritual problems, you can always stop.
(just as a side note, three weeks isn't really all that long . . . )
(this really probably belongs in the beginners forum)[/QUOTE] Sorry to get off topic, but how long is long for you? -laughs-
Have fun dude.
Peace.