Crowley / Enochian system evil...?

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Original post: Bazaapodeh

hi all, i came across this post on this site "gnosis central", its interesting and so i thought i'd ask for your take on this...

Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject: Magick in the Astral im finding that performing magickal ritual rituals in the astral makes things happen faster, i guess its because that im actually there, and not in the physical world performing a ritual ..
p.s have someone here summoned Aleister Crowley in teh astral to say that he is evil, and if so, did they had it in their mind that he was evil before they summoned him ,because wouldnt it be that if you go into it thinking ( believing ), that he is, then you will see him as that .?. this reminds me of the Beelzebub fiasco ..
Someone mentioned that the Enochian system is evil, well thats not my take on it ..
Paralda...

p.s are there any masters that anyone here has summoned personally but that arent known, or should i say well known, as im working on this,. theres also talk about Masters falling , etc, would anyone here happen to know about any who fell, and who's trying to make their way back up,again .?
interesting enough, i havent been able to summon Beelzebub,..

Paralda


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Lyn



Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 33

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:23 am Post subject: I understand the Master Zanoni is one of the Masters that has fallen.


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mystic



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 30

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Magick in the Astral Paralda wrote:have someone here summoned Aleister Crowley in teh astral to say that he is evil, and if so, did they had it in their mind that he was evil before they summoned him ,because wouldnt it be that if you go into it thinking ( believing ), that he is, then you will see him as that .?. this reminds me of the Beelzebub fiasco ..
Someone mentioned that the Enochian system is evil, well thats not my take on it ..
Paralda...


This doesn't sound clear, you say that you are able to be in astral and do rituals.... calling an entity or a master is very simple.... I wonder if you are not dreaming about being awake.... hummm

what is your purpose of being conscious in the Astral plane?
Just wondering...

OM MANI PADME HUM
Mystic.


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Isabel
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 110

Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:42 am Post subject: Aleister Crowley taught a ritual related to his version of the perfumed garden. This ritual involved men having homosexual relations. This is legitimate black magic. Crowley also was a drug addict and openly admitted that sometimes he would save his sexual energy and sometimes he would not. In my opinion, this is reason enough to know that he was fallen.

The Enochian system is not evil per se. It is just an incomplete system. There are a lot of pitfalls in this system of ancient magic that can easily lead one into mediumship or even black magic. Many of the so called angels that John Dee and Edward Kelly were communicating with were actually earth bound spirits who were tricking them. Obviously the Golden Dawn uses this system as "high magic". The problem is that the majority of initiates of the Golden Dawn either could not decipher this system correctly or simply did not have the consciousness to realize the entities they were communicating with.
In my understanding, these magical systems are much like sex. Their power and purity all lies within how we use it. The thing is that some techniques are more dangerous than others. The problem with the above mentioned order for example, is that in this day and age they have totally forgotten about the Arcanum AZF, the three factors etc, as far as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong).
I would not recommend the Enochian System as it is not necessary in the awakening of the consciousness and the completion of the Great Work.


give me your take on this, and why do these Gnostics under this person , or those who follow his teachings, make it seem as if their way is the only way to ...whatever... thanks

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Original post: Defgarden

Enochian? Evil?

Naw, maybe a little abstract, powerful, and sometimes totally objective as far as entities go I suppose. In my view, one's understanding of any magickal or astral entity goes as far as the experience with that entity. The people who say that the angels aren't truly angels are either lying, haven't worked with the enities enough, have a different definition of what an angel is, or are stupid, or maybe they just really believe that the enochian angels are not angels.

As for the rest of the Crowley bashing. Well, if homosexual ritual is "automatic" black magic then... well you think about it. One person's black is another person's pink.

*cough* (don't offer me a cough drop)

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Original post: fiat_lux_777

93

My take is that these people (the ones quoted) have no idea about the subjects they are discussing.

93 93/93

Todd

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Original post: Mmothra

This ritual involved men having homosexual relations. This is legitimate black magic. Crowley also was a drug addict and openly admitted that sometimes he would save his sexual energy and sometimes he would not. In my opinion, this is reason enough to know that he was fallen.

This person is a bigot on top of being an idiot. I wouldn't take anything s/he said seriously.

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Original post: Jenfucius

(Correct me on my accuracy) In Kraig's book MODERN MAGICK he commented on the "possible" "dangers"(?) of Enochian magick and stated that he beleived Crowley suffered misfortune (for the rest of his life) after dabling in Enochian magick. I dont know if its true or not but personally I wouldnt want to mess with it until much later in life.

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Original post: Mmothra

Enochian is undoubtedly potentially dangerous and not for the neophyte (I AM and Frater Manjet have said this repeatedly), but the blanket pronouncements made are really pompous and stupid from my pov.

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Original post: Circle

As someone who has practiced Enochian magick as well as someone who has done more then a few Thelemic Rituals, I can tell you that in my experience the magick of Aleister Crowley is neither "Black" nor "Evil," and Enochian magick, while not for the inexperienced, is as valid as any system of magick.

The thing to remember when talking to other's about magick is that there are two types of Magickians; those who think they know it all, and those who admit they don't. In either case, it is better for you to make up your own mind then let others make up your mind for you.

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Original post: Ludi

This ritual involved men having homosexual relations. This is legitimate black magic. Crowley also was a drug addict and openly admitted that sometimes he would save his sexual energy and sometimes he would not. In my opinion, this is reason enough to know that he was fallen.

This person is coming from the point of view of a person practicing the "true"Esoteric Path also known as the "true" Gnostic Path, which is promoted and taught on Mysticweb.org., usuing material by Samael Aun Weor.

Please note this is NOT my point of view, I just recognise the point of view and words such as "Master" and "fallen" in conjunction with this organizations teachings.

http://www.mysticweb.org/

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Original post: Fr.NovumOrganum

[QUOTE=Jenfucius](Correct me on my accuracy) In Kraig's book MODERN MAGICK he commented on the "possible" "dangers"(?) of Enochian magick and stated that he beleived Crowley suffered misfortune (for the rest of his life) after dabling in Enochian magick. I dont know if its true or not but personally I wouldnt want to mess with it until much later in life.[/QUOTE]
I believe Kraig states that "SOME" people think AC was never the same after his skrying of all 30 aethyrs in North Africa. Kraig is, I believe, refrencing Paul Foster Case and the BOTA postion that Enochian is evil. A good discussion of this position can be found In Joel Biroco's KAOS 14 and Satyr's Black Lodge of Santa Cruz. The other usual source of the enochian is evil thread is that silly book by Donald Tyson, where he states that enochian magick seeks to immanize the eschaton. As Satyr wittly remarks, if that was true, the world ended on....

Liber 418, The Vision and the Voice, is the major result of AC's enochian working. This is some heavy duty stuff, and IMHO, the pinnacle of Crowley's career and initiation. But to call it evil? Liber 418, more than any other, brings an entire new high mythology to magick, the beast and babalon, and gives form to the realmof the supernals. Our Lady Babalon....

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Original post: philalethes

[QUOTE=Bazaapodeh]Someone mentioned that the Enochian system is evil ... [/QUOTE]
The advancement of the view that the Enochian system is evil and destructive gained popularity through its promulagation by Paul Foster Case. He was a Praemonstrator of Thoth-Hermes Temple of the Golden Dawn (A.'.O.'.) and later resigned, creating his own Order Builders of the Adytum (B.O.T.A). The Initiatory Chapters of B.O.T.A. are structured after the rituals of the Golden Dawn but void of Enochian Magic and other references.

In a letter to Israel Regardie dated January 15, 1933, Case expressed his negative views toward Enochian Magic. He wrote:

"I concede the value of your testimony that no harm has come to yourself, or to members of the English Temples you are familiar with, through the use of the Enochian material. Yet I might say that I still believe the Enochian stuff perhaps more subtly harmful than appears even from such experiments. If the Order's method of evoking the elementals were purely Enochian, then I should have nothing to say. But since it is a mixture of the Enochian language and tablets with other, and probably older, materials, it seems not unlikely to me that such success as attends the use of the rituals is due rather to the real effectiveness of the various pentagrams, etc., than to anything else.

At any rate, I have found by experiments carried out now for more than seven years, that the elementals can be invoked precisely as well without the Enochian tablets or names. Instead of the latter, we have used Hebrew divine and angelic names, with usually good results.

You may be sure that my objections are not to ceremonial. It is only that I have had so much experience of the subtle dangers of corrupt ceremonial, that I prefer to be what seems to me on the safe side by eliminating from the rituals something that is certainly suspect as comming from a dubious source, by no means clearly connected with 'Rosicrucianism.'"

Case expounded his objections further in a later letter also addressed to Regardie, dated August 10, 1933. He wrote:

"The magical ceremonials [of the Golden Dawn], aside from the psuedo-Egyptian interpretation of the two rituals just mentioned, revolved largely around Dee's and Kelly's tablets. Now, I am far from denying that one gets resutls of a kind by the use of these tablets. Nor would I go so far as to say that the Enochian language is to be disregarded by any student of magic. On the other hand, it is not beyond the power of man to invent a coherent language. I did that very thing as a boy. On a grander scale we have Volapuk, Esperanto, and Id o. To say nothing of the language of Mars, which you may find in that interesting volume 'From India to the Planet Mars' by Flournoy.

My criticism of this part of the G.D. work is: (First) That it emanated so largely from Kelley; (Second) That the tablets are part of a rigamorole by which Kelly pursuaded Dee that they two were to be the puppet-masters of a new European political order which should supercede the kingdoms then reigning; (Third) That the same angel who dictated the Tablets also required that Kelley and Dee should have all things in common, including their wives; (Fourth) That the whole project came to the same ignominous end that is to be expected of human undertakings based upon promises of spirits; (Fifth) That there is no good reason to suppose that Kelley and Dee, or their enterprise, to say nothing of their magic, correspond to anything Rosicrucian; (Sixth, and most important) That I have personal knowledge of more than twenty-five instances where the performance of magical operations based on Order formulae led to serious disintigrations of mind or body ... Perhaps the most conspicous example of the unfortunate consequences of the use of these formulas is A.C. [Aleister Crowley] himself; but there are plenty of others that I know personally whose personal shipwreck has been just as complete, even though their smaller tonnage, so to say, makes the loss seem less deplorable than the disintegration of that great genius whom I admire and love just as much as you do, though my personal contact with him has been of the slightest. Judging from your 'Tree of Life', you will be ready to break several lances with me on this last criticism. Let me say again, then, that I do not question at all the magical efficacy of some of the formulas. S.R.M.D. [MacGregor Mathers] knew a lot about magic (more than he did about Qabalah, it seems to me), but there was a twist in his make-up that made him a most dangerous guide, as many have found to their cost. The whole Enochian procedure is indubitably potent. So are some of the practices of Obeah, to which I have given long study, ever since I spent my childhood winters in the British West Indies.

So, too, are mescal buttons, and hashish, and opium, and even Scotch whiskey. But even as the Chinese in Lamb's essay had to learn sooner or later that it was not necessary to burn down a house to roast a pig, so, I fear, will those who rely on G.D. formulas for magic learn to their cost, perhaps too late, that there is far more to magic than getting results."

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Original post: Fr.NovumOrganum

Just a retort to the "no reason to believe that Dee and Kelly had anything to do with rosicrucianism" argument maeks.

the fine historian and scholar Frances Yates has written several well recieved books which put forth the argument, with impressive scholarship, that Dee was a prime force behind the emergence of Rosicrucianism. See especially The Rosicrucian Enlightenment and The occult Philosophy in the Elizabethean Age.

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Original post: Redeemer

I had never read that writing by Israel Regardie and find it refreshing in a way. To respond to some of the stuff above, the fact that Crowley was a homosexual did not make him a black magician. The fact that he sometimes saved his energy, and sometimes did not seems more a matter of personal preference. I would say he was definitely gray to say the least. IMO, the most evil thing about him is that he liked to blow his own horn. His incredible skill was probably marred by his drug use, and it seems he cared more about his own legacy than anything else. He once said something to the effect of [In a hundred years the whole world will be basking in the glow of Crowleyanty] Maybe he had a Christ complex.

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Original post: Fr.NovumOrganum

Its noy by regardie, its a letter to regardie, by paul foster case. Regardie was a proponent and user of enochian, just see his opening by watchtower.

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Original post: Redeemer

Oh, thanks for the clarification. The writing style sounds similar.

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Original post: Tyrione/Taireon

Clarification: Crowley was bi-sexual, not homosexual. He truly had this metaphorical embodiment of Baphomet, beyond the notion of the Kundhalini Forces.

The fact any one still thinks Aleister was a Black Magician or that he was Evil has not invested much time in his works nor in the works of Magick.

From the view of the now deceased Magus, that he was misconstrued as being both Good and Evil, instead of being Beyond which is but one requirement, most certainly never came as a surprise.

I recommend that any one who takes word of mouth on Crowley or any occultist of reknowned status to discover their works and listen to their own Self as the final counsel on what their perceptions of them to be.

And in the end throw it in the trash or as Aleister would say soon find themselves on the path of the Black Brotherhood and doing battle with Choronzon, where self-doubt is always on the menu and Self is hidden in plain sight.

To sum it up, if you cannot see Crowley's sarcasm as a balancer to an often too serious mindset than you don't Understand Crowley.

[QUOTE=Redeemer]I had never read that writing by Israel Regardie and find it refreshing in a way. To respond to some of the stuff above, the fact that Crowley was a homosexual did not make him a black magician. The fact that he sometimes saved his energy, and sometimes did not seems more a matter of personal preference. I would say he was definitely gray to say the least. IMO, the most evil thing about him is that he liked to blow his own horn. His incredible skill was probably marred by his drug use, and it seems he cared more about his own legacy than anything else. He once said something to the effect of [In a hundred years the whole world will be basking in the glow of Crowleyanty] Maybe he had a Christ complex.[/QUOTE]

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Original post: Mmothra

[QUOTE=Ludi]This person is coming from the point of view of a person practicing the "true"Esoteric Path also known as the "true" Gnostic Path, which is promoted and taught on Mysticweb.org., usuing material by Samael Aun Weor.

Please note this is NOT my point of view, I just recognise the point of view and words such as "Master" and "fallen" in conjunction with this organizations teachings.

http://www.mysticweb.org/[/QUOTE]
Just to reiterate, this point of view is being promulgated from a very specific system of belief, that of Samael Aun Weor.

As a big 'ol fag, I am not an advocate or fan of their hyper-dualist nonsense but I wanted to reiterate Ludi's point. However, I did go to their website and wind them up a bit by calling them foolish bigots.

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Original post: Horus

[QUOTE=Ludi]This person is coming from the point of view of a person practicing the "true"Esoteric Path also known as the "true" Gnostic Path, which is promoted and taught on Mysticweb.org., usuing material by Samael Aun Weor.

Please note this is NOT my point of view, I just recognise the point of view and words such as "Master" and "fallen" in conjunction with this organizations teachings.

http://www.mysticweb.org/[/QUOTE]Samael Aun Weor (as much as some here love him) also says that anyone who spills Semen is a Black Magician... if I'm not mistaking it was anyone who spills it EVER in life, lol. Now, I personally believe there are uses for Semen conservation, but I think it's going a little far to say anyone who spills Semen is a "Black" Magician. It seems Weor has a habit of quickly putting certain practices into the category of Black Magick, without ever explaining why... in the case of Semen spillage that would be energy conservation. I figure he probably didn't know why he put all these practices in the category of "Black" himself.

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Original post: Aodh

Beware of the evil gays! They will teach you of matching colors and cooking! They are Black and vile!

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Original post: Mmothra

[QUOTE=Aodh]Beware of the evil gays! They will teach you of matching colors and cooking! They are Black and vile! [/QUOTE]
Dunno about matching colors...I was scolded this morning for putting on a blue shirt with olive drab trousers. However, I am a demon at redecorating!

Black and vile? More like black and violet...

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Original post: Aodh

Queer Eye For The Black Eye is all the rage in our viscious destruction covens. *nod-nod* /endsarcasmfornow

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Original post: kuahji

I'm not sure if the Enochian system of magick is evil or not. It does however seem to be a very powerful system of magick. Donald Tyson sure does think it is evil. A few days ago I was skimming through the Bible & I came to this passage Mathew (11:20-24). There is a city in that passage called "Chorazin." I couldn't help to notice that it does in a way look or perhaps even sound like the word Coronzon. I didn't think much of it at the time. But, I wrote it down & the next day I did an internet seach using just "Chorazin & Coronzon." I came to this webiste http://www.hermetic.com/wisdom/lib49.html by Jack Parsons. It does perhaps seem evil. This is "The Book of Babalon." Anyway just wanted to point that book out because it does appear to be very interesting. I guess perhaps any system of magick could be used for both good or evil depending on the users intent.

I do believe the Enochian system is supposed to be used for something so much different than any of us have even imagined. I am curious as to if anyone has compared the Enochian system to the work Michael Tsarion has done on Atlantis. The Enochian angels do state that the Adam & Eve event was not a historical matter but rather something else.

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Original post: Tyrione/Taireon

Your first mistake is taking the supposition that the supposed followers of Jesus of Nazareth (a Rabbi Priest) in the New Testament are on the 'good' side, let alone the fact that any one takes the New Testament with its centuries of translation to be any thing remotely useful other than another source to draw from and compare against the Qabalah is very naive.

Since Crowley's view of Choronzon is that of Dispersion and thus Division seems rather at odds with a City of Dispersion, unless one were to consider this City to be a City of "Shut Up", "Pious" and/or "Inert" Souls that through their derision towards The Universal Gift of Intercourse were always at odds with the rest of the World, viewing the World as Evil and Unpure.

[QUOTE=kuahji]I'm not sure if the Enochian system of magick is evil or not. It does however seem to be a very powerful system of magick. Donald Tyson sure does think it is evil. A few days ago I was skimming through the Bible & I came to this passage Mathew (11:20-24). There is a city in that passage called "Chorazin." I couldn't help to notice that it does in a way look or perhaps even sound like the word Coronzon. I didn't think much of it at the time. But, I wrote it down & the next day I did an internet seach using just "Chorazin & Coronzon." I came to this webiste http://www.hermetic.com/wisdom/lib49.html by Jack Parsons. It does perhaps seem evil. This is "The Book of Babalon." Anyway just wanted to point that book out because it does appear to be very interesting. I guess perhaps any system of magick could be used for both good or evil depending on the users intent.

I do believe the Enochian system is supposed to be used for something so much different than any of us have even imagined. I am curious as to if anyone has compared the Enochian system to the work Michael Tsarion has done on Atlantis. The Enochian angels do state that the Adam & Eve event was not a historical matter but rather something else.[/QUOTE]

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Original post: Frater Manjet

[QUOTE=Tyrione/Taireon]Your first mistake is taking the supposition that the supposed followers of Jesus of Nazareth (a Rabbi Priest) in the New Testament are on the 'good' side, let alone the fact that any one takes the New Testament with its centuries of translation to be any thing remotely useful other than another source to draw from and compare against the Qabalah is very naive.
[/QUOTE]Tyrione/Taireon, Please refrain from making derogatory statements in regards to another members post. Feel free to discuss without demeaning others. Remember we all have our own opinions and perspectives.

Om A Piap (210/3)

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Original post: kuahji

I'm sorry that I am naive. I was merely trying to point out the fact that a system of magick could be used for good or evil. The Chorazin & Corozon relation I am very well aware that they are two opposites (one a holy city, part of a three city triangle & then the other a demon in the enochian system). I was just telling a story on how I found a website that the author clearly uses Enochian magick for evil (in his story he travels via the astral world to Chorazin to do is bidding). I was really just posting the above to reinstate that the system could be used for good, as John Dee intended it for or as others like Parsons intend it for. Just found it interesting .

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Original post: Chela

[QUOTE=Horus]Samael Aun Weor (as much as some here love him) also says that anyone who spills Semen is a Black Magician... if I'm not mistaking it was anyone who spills it EVER in life, lol. Now, I personally believe there are uses for Semen conservation, but I think it's going a little far to say anyone who spills Semen is a "Black" Magician. It seems Weor has a habit of quickly putting certain practices into the category of Black Magick, without ever explaining why... in the case of Semen spillage that would be energy conservation. I figure he probably didn't know why he put all these practices in the category of "Black" himself.[/QUOTE]

Only when we know the laws of magnetism between bodies and souls will all the words spoken about love, sex and sexuality case to be transitory, senseless images, mists that vanish with the light. â?? Unknown

If the authentic procreative energies of both Soul and spirit are situated in the depths of our Consciousness, then it is precisely within the sympathetic nervous system that we encounter the mediator and guide to internal reality with its radiating network of sensitive ganglia, which not only influences the organs of the Soul but also governs, direct and controls the most important centers within the body; in the same mysterious manner it guides the marvel of conception to the birth of a new being, as well as the phenomena of the heart, kidneys, suprarenal capsules, generative glands, etc.

On the other hand, the sympathetic nervous system as the authentic Spiritus Creator of the body with all its spirituality and sensitivity to the rhythms of life, attempts to balance all subordinate psychic and physical elements in the rhythm of the Universe through the direction of molecular currents and the crystallization of cosmic rays.

Indeed, this Nervus Sympaticus is also a Nervus Ideoplasticus which must be understood as the mediator between our unconscious instinctual life and the moderation of living image impressed in our Spirit from many eternities. It is the great medium equilibrator which can pacify and reconcile the perpetual polarity in the rising and setting of the soulâ??s sun, in the manifestations of black and white, love and hate, God and devil, exaltation and discouragement. â?? Unknown

Yes, it is true that just about everyone is a Black Magician, because the ego ("Red Demons of Seth," "My true name is Legion," "psychic aggregates" in various traditions..) is an infraconscious clairvoyant that projects its will unto others. We can talk about non-dualistic theories that sound very nice to the intellect but that does not affect the Tree of Good and Evil. It would have been called the Tree of Sort of Nice and Sometimes Bad otherwise..

Elphias Levi clearly explains the mystery of this tree in his book, Transcendental Magic, and even goes as far as refrenceing it as a "shaft and a wound."

If we wish to talk about Good and Evil, let us first study this Tree and its Fruits.