Original post: kinkar
how much of what we percieve in the astral can be construed as objective if at all objective?
it seems very easy to assume that the "astral" is simply within ones mind
i personally think it is shared by every mind but what proof is there?
Astral = subjective?
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Mmothra
I agree with your assessment that the Astral is a shared construction. As such it would have both objective and subjective aspects.
I agree with your assessment that the Astral is a shared construction. As such it would have both objective and subjective aspects.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Radiant Star
I am not sure how you could prove it was shared, but many have experienced it.
I am thinking that if you measured brain waves of two people at the same time whilst they were seeing the same thing and there was a point in which they were identical, maybe that could be a way.
I am not sure how you could prove it was shared, but many have experienced it.
I am thinking that if you measured brain waves of two people at the same time whilst they were seeing the same thing and there was a point in which they were identical, maybe that could be a way.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Qryztufre
Well, if you don't mind subjective proof...
I've shared astral & near astral exeriences with friends...
Though, I'm a firm believer that each individual "filters" how the astral is preceived. I call it my "dream filter" as being astral is often like a dream state and in my case often achieved through dreams. At times I'm hard pressed to actually know the difference.
Q
Well, if you don't mind subjective proof...
I've shared astral & near astral exeriences with friends...
Though, I'm a firm believer that each individual "filters" how the astral is preceived. I call it my "dream filter" as being astral is often like a dream state and in my case often achieved through dreams. At times I'm hard pressed to actually know the difference.
Q
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: pAmphAge
[QUOTE=Qryztufre]
I'm a firm believer that each individual "filters" how the astral is perceived.
Q[/QUOTE]
I say the same is true of waking reality: "I'm a firm believer that each individual 'filters' how the physical world is perceived."
p/\mph/\ge
[QUOTE=Qryztufre]
I'm a firm believer that each individual "filters" how the astral is perceived.
Q[/QUOTE]
I say the same is true of waking reality: "I'm a firm believer that each individual 'filters' how the physical world is perceived."
p/\mph/\ge
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Ceriel Nosforit
Both. But what you experience is subjective, while the world your experience is based in is objective. It appears one can only be aware of objective reality without any sense of ego.
The astral is however harder for one's mind to interpit than the physical, so two people are more inclined 'see' different things in the astral than in the physical.
Both. But what you experience is subjective, while the world your experience is based in is objective. It appears one can only be aware of objective reality without any sense of ego.
The astral is however harder for one's mind to interpit than the physical, so two people are more inclined 'see' different things in the astral than in the physical.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Acid09
I think the astral plains are most likely one of three things 1) An alternate reality accessible through a spiritual vehicle. 2) A co-existing sub-reality who existance is a by product of the existance of our reality, or perhaps visa-versa. Or 3) A pseudo-world of thought and substaince. Something that all humans can perceive on some level and expereince. Kind of a collective consousness. Perhaps not limitited to humans but may include many animals and beings. The substaince of such space could be described as gaia.
I am sure, though, that there is something to the astral plains. That is I believe it exists, I'm just uncertain of its form. And more so uncertain about trying to proove or even study the existance of the astral plains.
The objective proof I have is purely my own. I have seen other worlds. Explored different schools of thought. I've seen places on earth that I've never been to before. I have met many other beings. I have needle worked my way into shared journies with friends and even travel space itself. What exactly happened could be explained by one of the three things I think the astral plains are as described above. I could have perceived things from an alternate reality, or a sub-reality or a fake world of soul and thought. Through those thought forms my expereince is subjective because I can not say for certain which of the three I believe the astral plains really are. The only objective proof I have to show myself is that I followed a technique for astral travel and expereinced the results of it. The only way I could share that proof with others is if they learned how to Ap and did it themselves.
The astral plains are accessible to anybody who can learn how to go there. Much like any bird that can fly will do so only if it learns. That accessiblity is the only thing I think is actually shared, on a consous level. Sure people may experience glimpses or sudden short experiences, but only somebody who practices AP could determine if its existance is subjective or not.
But there is not way to tell if the astral plains are a perception of thought, or a reality of its own that thought can percieve. We've explored more of the ocean than we have of our own minds. We know more about our physical world than we do about how tought works, what its capable of, the limmits of higher brain functions. Our brains are the hubs of human intellect and yet equally are black holes of the known. The source of all our knowledge and all our questions. In conclusion I would not doubt that the astral plains are purely within the collective human psyche any more than I would doubt that its a reality percevable by our collective human psyche. But regardless of the lack of proof for either I do believe they exist.
I think the astral plains are most likely one of three things 1) An alternate reality accessible through a spiritual vehicle. 2) A co-existing sub-reality who existance is a by product of the existance of our reality, or perhaps visa-versa. Or 3) A pseudo-world of thought and substaince. Something that all humans can perceive on some level and expereince. Kind of a collective consousness. Perhaps not limitited to humans but may include many animals and beings. The substaince of such space could be described as gaia.
I am sure, though, that there is something to the astral plains. That is I believe it exists, I'm just uncertain of its form. And more so uncertain about trying to proove or even study the existance of the astral plains.
The objective proof I have is purely my own. I have seen other worlds. Explored different schools of thought. I've seen places on earth that I've never been to before. I have met many other beings. I have needle worked my way into shared journies with friends and even travel space itself. What exactly happened could be explained by one of the three things I think the astral plains are as described above. I could have perceived things from an alternate reality, or a sub-reality or a fake world of soul and thought. Through those thought forms my expereince is subjective because I can not say for certain which of the three I believe the astral plains really are. The only objective proof I have to show myself is that I followed a technique for astral travel and expereinced the results of it. The only way I could share that proof with others is if they learned how to Ap and did it themselves.
The astral plains are accessible to anybody who can learn how to go there. Much like any bird that can fly will do so only if it learns. That accessiblity is the only thing I think is actually shared, on a consous level. Sure people may experience glimpses or sudden short experiences, but only somebody who practices AP could determine if its existance is subjective or not.
But there is not way to tell if the astral plains are a perception of thought, or a reality of its own that thought can percieve. We've explored more of the ocean than we have of our own minds. We know more about our physical world than we do about how tought works, what its capable of, the limmits of higher brain functions. Our brains are the hubs of human intellect and yet equally are black holes of the known. The source of all our knowledge and all our questions. In conclusion I would not doubt that the astral plains are purely within the collective human psyche any more than I would doubt that its a reality percevable by our collective human psyche. But regardless of the lack of proof for either I do believe they exist.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Acid09
[QUOTE=Acid09]But there is no way to tell if the astral plains are a perception of thought, or a reality of its own that thought can percieve.[/QUOTE]After re-reading this a question I have for myself is is there a difference between perceiving a world of thought and a world perceived through thought? I mean regardless of how you look at it the only thing that is for certain is that one perceives thought - "I think therefore I am". Its just in my quote perception of thought is put into two phrases but describes the same thing.
[QUOTE=Acid09]But there is no way to tell if the astral plains are a perception of thought, or a reality of its own that thought can percieve.[/QUOTE]After re-reading this a question I have for myself is is there a difference between perceiving a world of thought and a world perceived through thought? I mean regardless of how you look at it the only thing that is for certain is that one perceives thought - "I think therefore I am". Its just in my quote perception of thought is put into two phrases but describes the same thing.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: kinkar
i would imagine if there was a way to get someone in the physical world to percieve something caused by you in the astral then that would be proof enough.
like if you could move something near them or cause them to see you or in some way cause a change in the environment that another person is in to a degree that it is percievable by them then that would be sufficient evidence.
i would imagine if there was a way to get someone in the physical world to percieve something caused by you in the astral then that would be proof enough.
like if you could move something near them or cause them to see you or in some way cause a change in the environment that another person is in to a degree that it is percievable by them then that would be sufficient evidence.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: cryptobliss
[QUOTE=Acid09]After re-reading this a question I have for myself is is there a difference between perceiving a world of thought and a world perceived through thought? I mean regardless of how you look at it the only thing that is for certain is that one perceives thought - "I think therefore I am". Its just in my quote perception of thought is put into two phrases but describes the same thing.[/QUOTE]
This is a cool statement, because it cuts to the heart of the universe for me. I think therefore I am is the only thing I know is true, everything else that's true is based on assumption. The assumption that material reality exists is the foundation of physical scientific truth for instance, but its only all true GIVEN that an assumption about reality. (I can't see reality, only my thoughts) Given a different assumption, a bunch of other things are true. The Universe therefore is like a big function, you input some assumption, you get something out of it. Neat.
[QUOTE=Acid09]After re-reading this a question I have for myself is is there a difference between perceiving a world of thought and a world perceived through thought? I mean regardless of how you look at it the only thing that is for certain is that one perceives thought - "I think therefore I am". Its just in my quote perception of thought is put into two phrases but describes the same thing.[/QUOTE]
This is a cool statement, because it cuts to the heart of the universe for me. I think therefore I am is the only thing I know is true, everything else that's true is based on assumption. The assumption that material reality exists is the foundation of physical scientific truth for instance, but its only all true GIVEN that an assumption about reality. (I can't see reality, only my thoughts) Given a different assumption, a bunch of other things are true. The Universe therefore is like a big function, you input some assumption, you get something out of it. Neat.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: lilacsky22
I think most astral projections are subconcious based meaning they are not in RTZ(real time zone), Most of my expereinces with them were inflcted with my dreaming throughts of the subbconscious, and I must say It is hard to achieve the real thing, I have only expereinced a true out of body expereince a few times, but there are ways to increase your lucidity in order to push past the sub garbage and attain a full projection, have a look at these guides, thanks
http://www.astralabyss.com
I think most astral projections are subconcious based meaning they are not in RTZ(real time zone), Most of my expereinces with them were inflcted with my dreaming throughts of the subbconscious, and I must say It is hard to achieve the real thing, I have only expereinced a true out of body expereince a few times, but there are ways to increase your lucidity in order to push past the sub garbage and attain a full projection, have a look at these guides, thanks
http://www.astralabyss.com
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Delaran
I view the astral as a one of two things:
1. It is a subjective world in which I am imagining things that are happening and seeing things that aren't. Basically I mean I am daydreaming things up.
2. It is a reality either higher or lower than our own which we are able to tap into, but it is filled with energy of others whom have died and drifted toward it. This might be considered a 'limbo' of sorts. It is truely objective and us being there is a sign that it does exist and is shared by all.
I'm not sure which is the true case, but belief can be a powerful tool. Besides, that much concentration is difficult to maintain for extended periods of time.
I view the astral as a one of two things:
1. It is a subjective world in which I am imagining things that are happening and seeing things that aren't. Basically I mean I am daydreaming things up.
2. It is a reality either higher or lower than our own which we are able to tap into, but it is filled with energy of others whom have died and drifted toward it. This might be considered a 'limbo' of sorts. It is truely objective and us being there is a sign that it does exist and is shared by all.
I'm not sure which is the true case, but belief can be a powerful tool. Besides, that much concentration is difficult to maintain for extended periods of time.
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: ChaosTech
Is the astral plane subjective or objective?
The same question can be asked of this physical plane.
Are we all just pure will and perception (consciousness), attached to a sense of self (psyche/idenity), an intellect (process for thinking), emotions (instinctual drives/process for desire), and a set of physical senses as well as virtual senses (astral body/psychic self), inputing and outputing data (stimuli)? All the while shaping and being shaped, by the data we give and recieve?
According to advanced metaphysics, the answer is yes. Interesting enough, if one thinks about it, the first, that being psyche, is the elemental symbolism for fire (spiritual plane), the second, that being intellect, is air (mental plane), the third, that being emotions, is water, and the forth is earth. Many though ascribe the virtual senses (astral body) to water or air though, but because they are duplicates of the physical senses (the aetheric double anyone?), the plane of form, that being earth, seems like a better place to put them, although water/air works too, being as they are mental/emotional (virtual).
So anyway, it doesn't matter if the astral plane (the aethers as most have come to call this state of experience), is in your head or not. The fact is that living human beings can astral project, meet each other in this state, exchange information (communicate), and then "wake up," and confirm the experience with each other. Also, the experience certainly seems as if one is a disembodied consciousness (with everything attached, save the physical body, and so physical senses), as one can view physical areas, living embodied people, and even appear to others (with alot of practice) who are embodied, that is walking around as normal on this physical plane, as what looks like a projected image (in the case of many masters, to the degree where the "hologram" looks solid and real) of oneself. This last feat is called bi-location, and many eastern masters have used it to be in not just two places at once, but sometimes several, creating many "astral" copies of themselves, and even communicating with many different people at once via their doubles.
Amazingly cool, trippy shit eh? Now quit asking silly impossible to answer questions, like what is subjective and what is objective, and get to work on conditioning your mind to astral project.
Else become like me, lots of knowlege, too much neglected practice. 
Is the astral plane subjective or objective?
The same question can be asked of this physical plane.
Are we all just pure will and perception (consciousness), attached to a sense of self (psyche/idenity), an intellect (process for thinking), emotions (instinctual drives/process for desire), and a set of physical senses as well as virtual senses (astral body/psychic self), inputing and outputing data (stimuli)? All the while shaping and being shaped, by the data we give and recieve?
According to advanced metaphysics, the answer is yes. Interesting enough, if one thinks about it, the first, that being psyche, is the elemental symbolism for fire (spiritual plane), the second, that being intellect, is air (mental plane), the third, that being emotions, is water, and the forth is earth. Many though ascribe the virtual senses (astral body) to water or air though, but because they are duplicates of the physical senses (the aetheric double anyone?), the plane of form, that being earth, seems like a better place to put them, although water/air works too, being as they are mental/emotional (virtual).
So anyway, it doesn't matter if the astral plane (the aethers as most have come to call this state of experience), is in your head or not. The fact is that living human beings can astral project, meet each other in this state, exchange information (communicate), and then "wake up," and confirm the experience with each other. Also, the experience certainly seems as if one is a disembodied consciousness (with everything attached, save the physical body, and so physical senses), as one can view physical areas, living embodied people, and even appear to others (with alot of practice) who are embodied, that is walking around as normal on this physical plane, as what looks like a projected image (in the case of many masters, to the degree where the "hologram" looks solid and real) of oneself. This last feat is called bi-location, and many eastern masters have used it to be in not just two places at once, but sometimes several, creating many "astral" copies of themselves, and even communicating with many different people at once via their doubles.
Amazingly cool, trippy shit eh? Now quit asking silly impossible to answer questions, like what is subjective and what is objective, and get to work on conditioning your mind to astral project.
Else become like me, lots of knowlege, too much neglected practice. -
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: Qryztufre
[QUOTE=ChaosTech]Else become like me, lots of knowlege, too much neglected practice.[/QUOTE]
I started a "Pranic Vampire Anonymous" (PVA) to have a place where we/them could have a flame free place to post...should I now start a new group called SOFA?
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Sorry...off topic, I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...
Q
[QUOTE=ChaosTech]Else become like me, lots of knowlege, too much neglected practice.
[/QUOTE] I started a "Pranic Vampire Anonymous" (PVA) to have a place where we/them could have a flame free place to post...should I now start a new group called SOFA?
The Society of Occult Forum's Armchairists
Sorry...off topic, I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...
Q
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Astral = subjective?
Original post: ChaosTech
:lol:
:lol: