Original post: eatsbugs
Do you consider your faith and practice to work alongside science?
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Original post: Winnipeg1919
No, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
As a non-Christian, the latest scientific discoveries do not invalidate my faith. Learning more about the evolution of the species shows me more of the real Intelligent Design of the universe. I constantly marvel at how well it has worked and the symmetry found in evolution. Ecological niches filled by similar creatures from different evolutionary branches for instance.
Results in astronomy and astrophysics inform me of the true nature of the universe, and its beauty.
My reaction to other sciences is of the same order.
Psychology is still too young to have much effect on faith. Individual researchers have found "proof" and "disproof" for the validity of faith in just about equal quantities so far.
Paranormal research, so far, has only shown that the attitudes and prejudices of the observer affect the outcome. Something every quantum physicist knows, and the researchers are still trying to deny.
No, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
As a non-Christian, the latest scientific discoveries do not invalidate my faith. Learning more about the evolution of the species shows me more of the real Intelligent Design of the universe. I constantly marvel at how well it has worked and the symmetry found in evolution. Ecological niches filled by similar creatures from different evolutionary branches for instance.
Results in astronomy and astrophysics inform me of the true nature of the universe, and its beauty.
My reaction to other sciences is of the same order.
Psychology is still too young to have much effect on faith. Individual researchers have found "proof" and "disproof" for the validity of faith in just about equal quantities so far.
Paranormal research, so far, has only shown that the attitudes and prejudices of the observer affect the outcome. Something every quantum physicist knows, and the researchers are still trying to deny.
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
I am not a pagan, but yes, I do consider my faith and practice to work alongside science. I am also of the belief that more people should "modify" their faiths to integrate with facts that have been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.
I guess the classical example of this is the sect of "creationists" who, through the Bible alone, believe that the Earth is somewhere between five and eight thousand years old, despite physical evidence in rock on the earth having been dated to be much older than that. It's one thing when the writers of the Bible had no access to science as we know it today and substituted guesses for proof because proof was simply unavailable. However, since the entire Old Testament is by definition at least 2,000 years old, and most of the New Testament is at least 1,500 years old, something tells me that the "scientific evidence" some people claim that is inside (divine-inspired or not) could use a little... updating.
I am not a pagan, but yes, I do consider my faith and practice to work alongside science. I am also of the belief that more people should "modify" their faiths to integrate with facts that have been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.
I guess the classical example of this is the sect of "creationists" who, through the Bible alone, believe that the Earth is somewhere between five and eight thousand years old, despite physical evidence in rock on the earth having been dated to be much older than that. It's one thing when the writers of the Bible had no access to science as we know it today and substituted guesses for proof because proof was simply unavailable. However, since the entire Old Testament is by definition at least 2,000 years old, and most of the New Testament is at least 1,500 years old, something tells me that the "scientific evidence" some people claim that is inside (divine-inspired or not) could use a little... updating.
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Original post: Ice Flower
Of course. My faith works in perfect harmony with every aspect of the universe. Whenever I practice any type of magic, spellwork, or even just meditating, I can feel the energy in my surroundings.
I think that astronomy, geology, and natural sciences provide us with interesting information that lets us see the beauty and harmony.... and also the not-so-pretty stuff and the discord as well. But to me science is mostly about the "whats." My faith is about the "whys." There's never any friction between the two.
Just by the way, I think that one of the biggest scientific justifications of an Earth-based spiritual path is the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy, to wit, that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. This has huge implications, moreso than the Christians realize.
Also just by the way, and because I'm feeling chatty..... I find creationism to be the most amazingly ignorant standpoint ever. It's that simple. Do you know how many people think that Darwin's theory of evolution means that we came from monkeys? That was never even implied! And we see evolution all the time around us. Anyone who denies evolution is not a thinking person. That's another simple truth.
Of course. My faith works in perfect harmony with every aspect of the universe. Whenever I practice any type of magic, spellwork, or even just meditating, I can feel the energy in my surroundings.
I think that astronomy, geology, and natural sciences provide us with interesting information that lets us see the beauty and harmony.... and also the not-so-pretty stuff and the discord as well. But to me science is mostly about the "whats." My faith is about the "whys." There's never any friction between the two.
Just by the way, I think that one of the biggest scientific justifications of an Earth-based spiritual path is the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy, to wit, that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed. This has huge implications, moreso than the Christians realize.
Also just by the way, and because I'm feeling chatty..... I find creationism to be the most amazingly ignorant standpoint ever. It's that simple. Do you know how many people think that Darwin's theory of evolution means that we came from monkeys? That was never even implied! And we see evolution all the time around us. Anyone who denies evolution is not a thinking person. That's another simple truth.
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
[QUOTE=Ice Flower;352838]Do you know how many people think that Darwin's theory of evolution means that we came from monkeys? That was never even implied! And we see evolution all the time around us. Anyone who denies evolution is not a thinking person. That's another simple truth.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you completely, though evolution unfortunately has yet to be scientifically proven. Unless I'm wrong, it's current status is "scientifically supported," hence having the ability (though not necessarily the logic) to question it.
[QUOTE=Ice Flower;352838]Do you know how many people think that Darwin's theory of evolution means that we came from monkeys? That was never even implied! And we see evolution all the time around us. Anyone who denies evolution is not a thinking person. That's another simple truth.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you completely, though evolution unfortunately has yet to be scientifically proven. Unless I'm wrong, it's current status is "scientifically supported," hence having the ability (though not necessarily the logic) to question it.
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Original post: eatsbugs
[QUOTE=Yoshiaki_Abe;352839]I agree with you completely, though evolution unfortunately has yet to be scientifically proven. Unless I'm wrong, it's current status is "scientifically supported," hence having the ability (though not necessarily the logic) to question it.[/QUOTE]
Actually, there is a sort of undercurrent that suggests that humans evolved from an ape-like creature. Go to a museum and check out the displays. Also, the DNA between us and certain species of primate have startling similarities.
However, back on topic:
If you are in full accord with science with you practice magic, then how you reconcile when science says magic doesn't exist or isn't real?
[QUOTE=Yoshiaki_Abe;352839]I agree with you completely, though evolution unfortunately has yet to be scientifically proven. Unless I'm wrong, it's current status is "scientifically supported," hence having the ability (though not necessarily the logic) to question it.[/QUOTE]
Actually, there is a sort of undercurrent that suggests that humans evolved from an ape-like creature. Go to a museum and check out the displays. Also, the DNA between us and certain species of primate have startling similarities.
However, back on topic:
If you are in full accord with science with you practice magic, then how you reconcile when science says magic doesn't exist or isn't real?
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Original post: AstralMagickCraft
For the extremely intelligent magickian, the two are inseperable, for anyone else no, but they don't interfere, and for the beginners, stay away from science and skepticism for awhile, until you KNOW magick works, undoubtedly, would be my advice.
attempting to see the similarities in science gives a bit of insight into spiritual concepts.
Science says what we know we know, scientists say that is all we know. and eatsbugs, science says nothing about magick working, scientists say science says that.
I find it invaluable, if I didn't have a good grasp of WHY evolution is what it is, I wouldn't be able to apply those concepts to my life.
But as I said, if you feel insecure, do some simple magick to reverify, and forget about science for awhile.
For the extremely intelligent magickian, the two are inseperable, for anyone else no, but they don't interfere, and for the beginners, stay away from science and skepticism for awhile, until you KNOW magick works, undoubtedly, would be my advice.
attempting to see the similarities in science gives a bit of insight into spiritual concepts.
Science says what we know we know, scientists say that is all we know. and eatsbugs, science says nothing about magick working, scientists say science says that.
I find it invaluable, if I didn't have a good grasp of WHY evolution is what it is, I wouldn't be able to apply those concepts to my life.
But as I said, if you feel insecure, do some simple magick to reverify, and forget about science for awhile.
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Original post: eatsbugs
Pardon my fervor in this. These are honestly very personal questions that I want answers to in my own path finding.
to Astral:
If both magick and science are inseperable, and there is no conclusive evidence, as you say, from science that says magick doesn't work, why should a beginner stay away from science? Shouldn't one be able to work side by side with science without fear of malfunction of the practice?
Also, logic and study cannot prove the negative. Either something does work or doesn't work with evidence to prove the statement. So saying that there is no study done or no evidence to prove it one way or the other doesn't mean that is does work.
And just to include the bit about personal experiences...if it is working for you, how often? 50% of the time, 60%? What about the rest of that time: how do you account for failure? And would you be able to prove your successes with tangible, repeatable evidence?
Pardon my fervor in this. These are honestly very personal questions that I want answers to in my own path finding.
to Astral:
If both magick and science are inseperable, and there is no conclusive evidence, as you say, from science that says magick doesn't work, why should a beginner stay away from science? Shouldn't one be able to work side by side with science without fear of malfunction of the practice?
Also, logic and study cannot prove the negative. Either something does work or doesn't work with evidence to prove the statement. So saying that there is no study done or no evidence to prove it one way or the other doesn't mean that is does work.
And just to include the bit about personal experiences...if it is working for you, how often? 50% of the time, 60%? What about the rest of that time: how do you account for failure? And would you be able to prove your successes with tangible, repeatable evidence?
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Original post: IAO131
Evolution is as scientifically 'supported' as the theory of gravity, the theory of electromagnetism, the theory of genes, the theory of germs, or anything. You do not know what 'theory' means in terms of science. Science is humble enough to recognize that, empirically, nothing can be absolutely proven as there is always the possibility of a new empirical fact coming along. That being said, certain theories (which means a coherent and tested set of propositions, not a good guess) work well enough to even predict things (like Schroedinger's absolute square of the wave function, or Einstein's relativity equations, or even evolution's predicting of various intermediaries and other things).
Evolution does say we came from apes in the sense that we are the evolved form, through natural selection, from apes. They are directly connected to us through the phylogenetic tree.
I hope this was all a joke because its all pretty damn sad.
IAO131
Holy shit, I never would have thought Id see such idiocy on this forum.Yoshiaki_Abe;352839 wrote:I agree with you completely, though evolution unfortunately has yet to be scientifically proven. Unless I'm wrong, it's current status is "scientifically supported," hence having the ability (though not necessarily the logic) to question it.
Evolution is as scientifically 'supported' as the theory of gravity, the theory of electromagnetism, the theory of genes, the theory of germs, or anything. You do not know what 'theory' means in terms of science. Science is humble enough to recognize that, empirically, nothing can be absolutely proven as there is always the possibility of a new empirical fact coming along. That being said, certain theories (which means a coherent and tested set of propositions, not a good guess) work well enough to even predict things (like Schroedinger's absolute square of the wave function, or Einstein's relativity equations, or even evolution's predicting of various intermediaries and other things).
Evolution does say we came from apes in the sense that we are the evolved form, through natural selection, from apes. They are directly connected to us through the phylogenetic tree.
I hope this was all a joke because its all pretty damn sad.
Now thats dumb advice if Ive ever heard it. Stay away from skepticism until you have faith? Right...AstralMagickCraft;352878 wrote:For the extremely intelligent magickian, the two are inseperable, for anyone else no, but they don't interfere, and for the beginners, stay away from science and skepticism for awhile, until you KNOW magick works, undoubtedly, would be my advice.
Theres scientific facts and then theres the scientific method, something every occultist should know about.attempting to see the similarities in science gives a bit of insight into spiritual concepts.
Show me a scientist, let alone 'science,' that says that.Science says what we know we know, scientists say that is all we know.
According to empirical tests, many things like ESP, telekinesis, and other things have not been sufficiently proven. The bigger problem is that no one really cares to try to prove any of it with empirically sound methods so, rather, no one has proved anything.and eatsbugs, science says nothing about magick working, scientists say science says that.
I don't get it... if you feel insecure, run away into your own beliefs? It makes no sense.But as I said, if you feel insecure, do some simple magick to reverify, and forget about science for awhile.
IAO131
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Original post: Yoshiaki_Abe
It's not a joke; I'm sorry if I misrepresented myself. I believe in evolution completely; the data in favor of it is simply astronomical. I'm just saying it has not yet been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. That's what allows people (however silly their notions may be) to discredit and attempt to debunk the evolution theory.
It's not a joke; I'm sorry if I misrepresented myself. I believe in evolution completely; the data in favor of it is simply astronomical. I'm just saying it has not yet been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. That's what allows people (however silly their notions may be) to discredit and attempt to debunk the evolution theory.
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Original post: Ice Flower
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;352875]Actually, there is a sort of undercurrent that suggests that humans evolved from an ape-like creature. Go to a museum and check out the displays. Also, the DNA between us and certain species of primate have startling similarities.[/QUOTE]
First of all I'm not talking about what's been proven today. I was referring to Darwin's theory of evolution. His actual theory about human evolution is that humans and some apes evolved from the same ancestor. Thanks for spelling it out but I didn't really think it was necessary.
BTW we have seen proof beyond a shadow of a doubt about evolution that has happened really recently. One such example is about elephants. Male elephants have been poached for their ivory since time out of mind. When an elephant is killed before reproducing, the elephant does not pass down its genes for large ivory tusks. Meanwhile elephants that have small or no tusks are left alone, and they to reproduce and pass their genes down. The overall effect is that eventually, after many generations, elephants that have genes for small tusks dominate the genepool.
Poachers today are killing fewer elephants. Not out of concern for the environment; there are simply fewer and fewer elephants with large tusks.
Elephants have adapted. What people (Christians) object to is that this adapatation is mindless, based on chance. Jesus did not descend from on high and command that elephants stop growing tusks. What happened is that the genes that are geared toward survival have begun to overrule the genes that are endangering the elephant to get killed. There is no intellegence to this design. There is no real "design." It just is. This is the way species ensure survival.
I think this is miraculous. Wonderful. Awesome in the truest sense of the word.
Some people in certain faiths see the world as something that was created, and revere the creator. I feel that the world just is, it exists, and maybe the world itself is something to be revered. Maybe it is a sentient being all its own. This is the root of why my faith works with the world.
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;352875]Actually, there is a sort of undercurrent that suggests that humans evolved from an ape-like creature. Go to a museum and check out the displays. Also, the DNA between us and certain species of primate have startling similarities.[/QUOTE]
First of all I'm not talking about what's been proven today. I was referring to Darwin's theory of evolution. His actual theory about human evolution is that humans and some apes evolved from the same ancestor. Thanks for spelling it out but I didn't really think it was necessary.
BTW we have seen proof beyond a shadow of a doubt about evolution that has happened really recently. One such example is about elephants. Male elephants have been poached for their ivory since time out of mind. When an elephant is killed before reproducing, the elephant does not pass down its genes for large ivory tusks. Meanwhile elephants that have small or no tusks are left alone, and they to reproduce and pass their genes down. The overall effect is that eventually, after many generations, elephants that have genes for small tusks dominate the genepool.
Poachers today are killing fewer elephants. Not out of concern for the environment; there are simply fewer and fewer elephants with large tusks.
Elephants have adapted. What people (Christians) object to is that this adapatation is mindless, based on chance. Jesus did not descend from on high and command that elephants stop growing tusks. What happened is that the genes that are geared toward survival have begun to overrule the genes that are endangering the elephant to get killed. There is no intellegence to this design. There is no real "design." It just is. This is the way species ensure survival.
I think this is miraculous. Wonderful. Awesome in the truest sense of the word.
Some people in certain faiths see the world as something that was created, and revere the creator. I feel that the world just is, it exists, and maybe the world itself is something to be revered. Maybe it is a sentient being all its own. This is the root of why my faith works with the world.
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Original post: Ice Flower
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;352875]If you are in full accord with science with you practice magic, then how you reconcile when science says magic doesn't exist or isn't real?[/QUOTE]
You say that science doesn't know everything about anything. You say that 15 years ago people didn't know about quarks. You then say that magicians and scientists should never attach reality to anything. Then you say "I read that last one in this book I read called Liber Kaos. It's a really good read. A little hard to understand, but still good."
Then you smile 'cause you know what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;352875]If you are in full accord with science with you practice magic, then how you reconcile when science says magic doesn't exist or isn't real?[/QUOTE]
You say that science doesn't know everything about anything. You say that 15 years ago people didn't know about quarks. You then say that magicians and scientists should never attach reality to anything. Then you say "I read that last one in this book I read called Liber Kaos. It's a really good read. A little hard to understand, but still good." Then you smile 'cause you know what you're talking about.
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Original post: eatsbugs
[QUOTE=Ice Flower;353131] You say that science doesn't know everything about anything. You say that 15 years ago people didn't know about quarks. You then say that magicians and scientists should never attach reality to anything. Then you say "I read that last one in this book I read called Liber Kaos. It's a really good read. A little hard to understand, but still good."
Then you smile 'cause you know what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
So you recommend that magicians, who have a history of being fairly methodical in their study of their craft, just explain the world away without trying to fit it into the contexts that they have tried to adjust to for so long?
Several people here have said that they don't think science is contrary to their personal practices, but you just told them they shouldn't worry about science and should rely on a series of books written by one person in a trance, if not a drug-addled one. That doesn't add up, and its highly unethical.
In regards to evolution, Ice Flower, you present an example that works. Another one might be how one scientist, over the last thirty years, went to pains to see if e.coli bacteria would suddenly develop the ability to digest certain proteins if exposed to them long enough. Surely enough, after 30 years, and thousands of generations of bacteria, he has samples that will respond positively to said protein. That is true laboratory experimentation there, and hopefully more will follow in his stead.
However, back to the original topic: Is there are particular part of your daily or regular practices that would contrast with science, and how do you reconcile that?
[QUOTE=Ice Flower;353131]
You say that science doesn't know everything about anything. You say that 15 years ago people didn't know about quarks. You then say that magicians and scientists should never attach reality to anything. Then you say "I read that last one in this book I read called Liber Kaos. It's a really good read. A little hard to understand, but still good." Then you smile 'cause you know what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
So you recommend that magicians, who have a history of being fairly methodical in their study of their craft, just explain the world away without trying to fit it into the contexts that they have tried to adjust to for so long?
Several people here have said that they don't think science is contrary to their personal practices, but you just told them they shouldn't worry about science and should rely on a series of books written by one person in a trance, if not a drug-addled one. That doesn't add up, and its highly unethical.
In regards to evolution, Ice Flower, you present an example that works. Another one might be how one scientist, over the last thirty years, went to pains to see if e.coli bacteria would suddenly develop the ability to digest certain proteins if exposed to them long enough. Surely enough, after 30 years, and thousands of generations of bacteria, he has samples that will respond positively to said protein. That is true laboratory experimentation there, and hopefully more will follow in his stead.
However, back to the original topic: Is there are particular part of your daily or regular practices that would contrast with science, and how do you reconcile that?
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Original post: Jenfucius
I dont believe science has been conclusive on wether magic(k) exists or not. Alot of it is still much in the air.
(Not that I'm picking on you Eatsbugs or anything on the forums. This topic is interesting.)eatsbugs;352875 wrote: If you are in full accord with science with you practice magic, then how you reconcile when science says magic doesn't exist or isn't real?
I dont believe science has been conclusive on wether magic(k) exists or not. Alot of it is still much in the air.
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Original post: Jenfucius
-Change in brain wave activity. (eg frm Theta brain wave activity to alpha brain waves activity)
-Effects of solar flares and solar winds upon the earth
-Magnetic field fluctuations within the geology of the earth
-Hormonal changes within the body
-Magnetic fields from storms
-Changes in one's diet
-Changes in one's mood or emotion
etc.
There could be a number of factors:eatsbugs;352996 wrote:...
And just to include the bit about personal experiences...if it is working for you, how often? 50% of the time, 60%? What about the rest of that time: how do you account for failure? ....
-Change in brain wave activity. (eg frm Theta brain wave activity to alpha brain waves activity)
-Effects of solar flares and solar winds upon the earth
-Magnetic field fluctuations within the geology of the earth
-Hormonal changes within the body
-Magnetic fields from storms
-Changes in one's diet
-Changes in one's mood or emotion
etc.
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Original post: AstralMagickCraft
Because a beginer shouldn't bombard his subconcious with "magick doesn't work" I'm hoping a more advanced magickian can expound upon that.If both magick and science are inseperable, and there is no conclusive evidence, as you say, from science that says magick doesn't work, why should a beginner stay away from science?
Thats what I do, and as I said, for the more intelligent magickian, they are insperable.Shouldn't one be able to work side by side with science without fear of malfunction of the practice?
That is essentially what I was trying to tell you, science has not and cannot prove magick doesn't exist.Also, logic and study cannot prove the negative.
Doesn't mean it doesn't work either.Either something does work or doesn't work with evidence to prove the statement. So saying that there is no study done or no evidence to prove it one way or the other doesn't mean that is does work.
Also, logic and study cannot prove the negative.
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Original post: eatsbugs
[QUOTE=AstralMagickCraft;353447]Because a beginer shouldn't bombard his subconcious with "magick doesn't work" I'm hoping a more advanced magickian can expound upon that.
Thats what I do, and as I said, for the more intelligent magickian, they are insperable.
That is essentially what I was trying to tell you, science has not and cannot prove magick doesn't exist.
Doesn't mean it doesn't work either.
[/QUOTE]
Regarding your first point, I still think that what you're saying implies that science and magick don't work hand in hand, and that a student should ignore science for a while implies that magick and science don't work hand in hand, which you pointed out isn't necessarily the case, and that there is no way to say it doesn't work.
However, I will say that some things that are magick related or are considered beyond the human norm have been debunked successfully.
Other than that, the burden of proof is still on the magician to prove it does work. What is your evidence?
[QUOTE=AstralMagickCraft;353447]Because a beginer shouldn't bombard his subconcious with "magick doesn't work" I'm hoping a more advanced magickian can expound upon that.
Thats what I do, and as I said, for the more intelligent magickian, they are insperable.
That is essentially what I was trying to tell you, science has not and cannot prove magick doesn't exist.
Doesn't mean it doesn't work either.
[/QUOTE]Regarding your first point, I still think that what you're saying implies that science and magick don't work hand in hand, and that a student should ignore science for a while implies that magick and science don't work hand in hand, which you pointed out isn't necessarily the case, and that there is no way to say it doesn't work.
However, I will say that some things that are magick related or are considered beyond the human norm have been debunked successfully.
Other than that, the burden of proof is still on the magician to prove it does work. What is your evidence?
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Original post: eatsbugs
[QUOTE=Jenfucius;353406]There could be a number of factors:
-Change in brain wave activity. (eg frm Theta brain wave activity to alpha brain waves activity)
-Effects of solar flares and solar winds upon the earth
-Magnetic field fluctuations within the geology of the earth
-Hormonal changes within the body
-Magnetic fields from storms
-Changes in one's diet
-Changes in one's mood or emotion
etc.[/QUOTE]
Some of these I would buy. Hormonal changes, diet and mood changes, even weather changes (since they can be tied to mood...actually all of the above can). However, I don't think magnetic fields and solar flares do anything to the human body that would cause it to not function at optimal levels. If you can prove me wrong, please do.
[QUOTE=Jenfucius;353406]There could be a number of factors:
-Change in brain wave activity. (eg frm Theta brain wave activity to alpha brain waves activity)
-Effects of solar flares and solar winds upon the earth
-Magnetic field fluctuations within the geology of the earth
-Hormonal changes within the body
-Magnetic fields from storms
-Changes in one's diet
-Changes in one's mood or emotion
etc.[/QUOTE]
Some of these I would buy. Hormonal changes, diet and mood changes, even weather changes (since they can be tied to mood...actually all of the above can). However, I don't think magnetic fields and solar flares do anything to the human body that would cause it to not function at optimal levels. If you can prove me wrong, please do.
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Original post: Jenfucius
I'm refering to "paranormal/psychic/magick" abilities (that solar flares or magnetic fields may have an effect on someone producing (or not producing) "paranormal/psychic /magick" albilities).
I'm not refering to the physiacl body.eatsbugs;353466 wrote:....However, I don't think magnetic fields and solar flares do anything to the human body that would cause it to not function at optimal levels. If you can prove me wrong, please do.
I'm refering to "paranormal/psychic/magick" abilities (that solar flares or magnetic fields may have an effect on someone producing (or not producing) "paranormal/psychic /magick" albilities).
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Original post: Jenfucius
Alot of magicians would just rather mind their own business and do their own thing.
Only for those who are making claims.eatsbugs;353464 wrote:...
Other than that, the burden of proof is still on the magician to prove it does work. What is your evidence?
Alot of magicians would just rather mind their own business and do their own thing.
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Original post: AstralMagickCraft
Actually, you came in here upset the dominant paradigm,(ignored the no preaching rules) and started making claims about reality, I suggest you prove them.Other than that, the burden of proof is still on the magician to prove it does work. What is your evidence?
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Original post: Ice Flower
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;353145].... but you just told them they shouldn't worry about science and should rely on a series of books written by one person in a trance, if not a drug-addled one. That doesn't add up, and its highly unethical.
[/QUOTE]
.....mmmm.... wtf?
"Liber Kaos" is but one book, not a series of books. It is a book that does nothing less than redefine previous thoughts of why magick works, and gives examples of its theories as they fit into a quantum-theory-based universe. It was in no way written by someone who was in a trance.
You know, you could at least Google the title before bashing it. That way you could bash it with something accurate.
I usually try not to make a personal judgement of someone simply based on that person's opinions, but I could make an exception.
[QUOTE=eatsbugs;353145].... but you just told them they shouldn't worry about science and should rely on a series of books written by one person in a trance, if not a drug-addled one. That doesn't add up, and its highly unethical.
[/QUOTE]
.....mmmm.... wtf?
"Liber Kaos" is but one book, not a series of books. It is a book that does nothing less than redefine previous thoughts of why magick works, and gives examples of its theories as they fit into a quantum-theory-based universe. It was in no way written by someone who was in a trance.
You know, you could at least Google the title before bashing it. That way you could bash it with something accurate.
I usually try not to make a personal judgement of someone simply based on that person's opinions, but I could make an exception.
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Original post: pickle
I myself do and dont, some aspects can 'co-inhabit' with science, while most do not. But who is to say that science is right, it is just a best guess at any givin time. Remember we thought the Sun revolved around us and the Earth was flat. So there is nothing to say that in 50 years or so, what i believe wont be a viable scientific theory. Although i doubt it.
I myself do and dont, some aspects can 'co-inhabit' with science, while most do not. But who is to say that science is right, it is just a best guess at any givin time. Remember we thought the Sun revolved around us and the Earth was flat. So there is nothing to say that in 50 years or so, what i believe wont be a viable scientific theory. Although i doubt it.
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Original post: Jenfucius
I think quantum physics has thrown conventional scientific theorires upside down.
I think quantum physics has thrown conventional scientific theorires upside down.
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Original post: Ice Flower
[QUOTE=Jenfucius;354674]I think quantum physics has thrown conventional scientific theorires upside down.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. It is a whole new way of looking at the universe.
For example, take what every third-grader is taught: The Big Bang Theory, which fits with the Isaac Newton theory. At one time, all the matter in the universe was compressed into a single point, blah blah blah, that point exploded, the whole universe is expanding... you know the story. But physics in this universe is based on cause and effect, which works pretty well most of the time. "An object in motion will stay in motion unless stopped by another object" be it gravity, air resistance, etc. But the laws of physics break down when faced with the Big Bang Theory; if the universe really was compressed at one point, then what caused it to explode? God? That seems to be implied. The universe as it was seen by Isaac Newton seems very religion-friendly; it is based on things like cause and reaction, beginnings and endings, and is not friendly to more "natural things" like cycles... and "magic" for want of a better term. (I hate the word magic. It has too many connotations.)
Quantum theory is based on probability. The idea that things in the universe are based on waves of probability of occurance. I really am not able to explain it very satisfactorily... It deals with things like dimensions, reality, the idea that there are parallel universes, and the concepts that are (and always have been) important to people knowledgable in the occult. For example, the astral plane, as we call it, the place where all events happen before they "happen" in the physical plane. Of course quantum theory doesn't use psychic-hotline vocabulary like "astral plane" and "magic" but the ideas are there. It is a system that is much more flexible to the ideals of magic.
But in respect to the original thread, quantum theory is a reason why I think most people's faith works in tandem with science. Quantum theory works with the nature of reality, which to this day defies absolute definition.
[QUOTE=Jenfucius;354674]I think quantum physics has thrown conventional scientific theorires upside down.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. It is a whole new way of looking at the universe.
For example, take what every third-grader is taught: The Big Bang Theory, which fits with the Isaac Newton theory. At one time, all the matter in the universe was compressed into a single point, blah blah blah, that point exploded, the whole universe is expanding... you know the story. But physics in this universe is based on cause and effect, which works pretty well most of the time. "An object in motion will stay in motion unless stopped by another object" be it gravity, air resistance, etc. But the laws of physics break down when faced with the Big Bang Theory; if the universe really was compressed at one point, then what caused it to explode? God? That seems to be implied. The universe as it was seen by Isaac Newton seems very religion-friendly; it is based on things like cause and reaction, beginnings and endings, and is not friendly to more "natural things" like cycles... and "magic" for want of a better term. (I hate the word magic. It has too many connotations.)
Quantum theory is based on probability. The idea that things in the universe are based on waves of probability of occurance. I really am not able to explain it very satisfactorily... It deals with things like dimensions, reality, the idea that there are parallel universes, and the concepts that are (and always have been) important to people knowledgable in the occult. For example, the astral plane, as we call it, the place where all events happen before they "happen" in the physical plane. Of course quantum theory doesn't use psychic-hotline vocabulary like "astral plane" and "magic" but the ideas are there. It is a system that is much more flexible to the ideals of magic.
But in respect to the original thread, quantum theory is a reason why I think most people's faith works in tandem with science. Quantum theory works with the nature of reality, which to this day defies absolute definition.