When do you stop believing?

[Frumens]

Do you believe everything that you read? When you're researching the incredible knowledge that constitutes the occult, how do you know when to activate your skepticism? What makes a source seem credible to you?

I've begun reading a book about non-physical beings (The Phantom World, or, The Philosophy of Spirits, Apparitions, &c). The person who wrote the book's introduction mentions that he doesn't actually believe the stories in the book, but still finds its contents to be philosophically and historically valuable. He also says that forewarns that even if supernatural happenings are real, frauds will still be around to capitalize on gullibility of the undereducated.

I've been pondering how I can discern possible occult truths from falsehoods and outright scams. I spent some time messing around with the New Age age stuff until I reached a point that was way too far out for me, and some of the things were clearly just scams. Right now, I'm ignoring any kind of supernatural resources that are connected to the New Age label, and anything that requires me to give a lot of money directly to another person.

I know that I can't believe anything and everything that I read or hear. For example, I've discovered that it's technically illegal in my state to "pretend" do divination for lucre. The police don't regularly hunt for tarot readers and lock them up; the law usually applies to the kinds of "divinators" that extort money by telling people that they're cursed.

I'm curious to know how other occultists filter out the BS.

[Etar]

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

— Aleister Crowley, Liber O

[Stukov]

I think it best to believe only in ideals, principles, and values. The rest is just opinion and observation, which can be changed when facts of the truth are discovered. Beliefs are often held as strong as diamonds and when you try to apply this to a world view, you end up throwing your weight behind ignorance. You create a box that ignores truth and shackles you by faith to that ignorance or the individual who sold you the ignorance as the truth.

If you stick to the message and only believe in ideals, the facts of the world can shape you like clay molding to the truth. When you believe in an ideal you can find and accept it any form you find it.

[Frumens]

I think it best to believe only in ideals, principles, and values. The rest is just opinion and observation, which can be changed when facts of the truth are discovered. Beliefs are often held as strong as diamonds and when you try to apply this to a world view, you end up throwing your weight behind ignorance. You create a box that ignores truth and shackles you by faith to that ignorance or the individual who sold you the ignorance as the truth.

If you stick to the message and only believe in ideals, the facts of the world can shape you like clay molding to the truth. When you believe in an ideal you can find and accept it any form you find it.

That was quite poetic. This approach would also help me to deal with the upsetting prejudicial stuff that's found in old texts.

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

— Aleister Crowley, Liber O

It's nice when he says things that I can use. Thank you.

[akimbomoss]

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

— Aleister Crowley, Liber O

I've seen this written many times. I took a course called Crowley 101 hosted by Robert Anton Wilson. One of the most important things everybody seemed to agree on is if you don't believe in these spirits, they won't play. Language is too restrictive to go around making statements like this. It sounds like a disclaimer for the mentally ill to stop them from believing in their hallucinations for example. For somebody else who took the time to study and do rituals I think they ignored this statement by then.

[LandOfShadows]

Frumens,

I like reading alternative truth articles and conspiracy theories, and it is hard in fishing out the crazy from the plausable so I understand where your coming from.

However when it comes to the occult and new age items, I still try and digest it or read into it, I find with the occult is never drop your base work or what works for you. Try and adapt and extend what you do.

Even new age stuff can contain items of great use, I found a breathing course that was brilliant for example. My own couuse being written about 4 years ago now would be new age, however the being I was passed it from I feel is age less or doesn't regard time in the same way as we do.

Ancient magic doctorine has areas of Alchemy that in todays would sits under science, so even from the anient scripts there will be items to discard, in my own opinion.

LoS
Steve

[Etar]

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

— Aleister Crowley, Liber O

I've seen this written many times. I took a course called Crowley 101 hosted by Robert Anton Wilson. One of the most important things everybody seemed to agree on is if you don't believe in these spirits, they won't play. Language is too restrictive to go around making statements like this. It sounds like a disclaimer for the mentally ill to stop them from believing in their hallucinations for example. For somebody else who took the time to study and do rituals I think they ignored this statement by then.

I see it the same way.

[reptilian]

As an academic person interested in valid science, a paradigm pirate and a chaos magician, I absolutely refuse to believe anything about the occult under any circumstances unless I am in the process of working a spell, in which case most things are up for grabs.

In fact, I periodically decide not to believe in any of it at all and leave the realm of magical practice for months or years at a time. The entire concept of magic/supernatural is so disgustingly disreputable that I can barely stand to practice at all. However, it also works. It works so well for me that I hate it, but use it when appropriate.

[akimbomoss]

As an academic person interested in valid science, a paradigm pirate and a chaos magician, I absolutely refuse to believe anything about the occult under any circumstances unless I am in the process of working a spell, in which case most things are up for grabs.

In fact, I periodically decide not to believe in any of it at all and leave the realm of magical practice for months or years at a time. The entire concept of magic/supernatural is so disgustingly disreputable that I can barely stand to practice at all. However, it also works. It works so well for me that I hate it, but use it when appropriate.

You're exceptional. I don't think this is the norm.

[dRider]

Reptillian's way works well for him/her. That's pretty cool to have such full ideas about how to go about it. Many spend their entire lives trying to get at life through a spell, and fail dismally. I choose to believe that everything in the whole of my experience is not as it seems, but that's more the "illusion" paradigm than believing in magick.

[Moth]

I'll tend to read any old shit for the chance it has a nugget or two in it, but basically just trust your instincts. It's like Pirsig says in Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance: "Quality - no-one can define it, but everyone knows it when they see it".

One example was a Tarot book I started reading. It was quite interesting, and then I came upon the sentence "And of course the gypsies originally came from Atlantis" *flings book over shoulder*

[TheSeeker]

For me, it's not that I stop believing per se.
It's more like I have periods where it doesn't matter.

I used to feel that I was having some kind of crisis of faith or summink, but now I realize that --as with any Study-- one has to take a break periodically to digest things intellectually. So now I don't worry about it.

[edit] Ooooh, 93rd. post! [wink2]

[Muloc7253]

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.

It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."

— Aleister Crowley, Liber O

I've seen this written many times. I took a course called Crowley 101 hosted by Robert Anton Wilson. One of the most important things everybody seemed to agree on is if you don't believe in these spirits, they won't play. Language is too restrictive to go around making statements like this. It sounds like a disclaimer for the mentally ill to stop them from believing in their hallucinations for example. For somebody else who took the time to study and do rituals I think they ignored this statement by then.

I think its written for novices that don't yet know the nature of the astral, that think reality is set in stone, that don't realise gods/spirits are representations of energy given form and that there isn't a fundamental difference between reality/un-reality.

[reptilian]

Or it's written from a perspective of cheerful soft atheism/non belief. o.o Given the epistemologically untenable premise of objective reality, it's generally extremely unwise to make any assumptions about what is real or unreal. From what little I've read of him firsthand, Crowley seemed to be very appreciative of his own ridiculous position as an occultist, and I would consider that quotation to be a strong example of that precise attitude.

[Moth]

I'm always fascinated with Crowley's attitude to himself. The best guess I have is what we in the band say about music: "Take the WORK seriously, yourself, not so much "