MAGICK: BLACK, WHITE & GRAY

[Asurendra]

It is not uncommon for there to be discussions on the Forum about the ethical use of magick and cosmic blow-back for our choices. I thought it might be informative to create a thread on which to focus on this subject. So, for whatever it may be worth, I’ll offer some of my opinions on the subjects of Black Magic, White Magic and Gray Magick.

There are some who come to the Forum with their definitions of these categories completely molded by popular culture or religion. As shorthand, let’s call this the Popular View. To ‘summon demons’ is Black Magic, cut and dry. You send them to attack the guy who annoys you in gym class then they eat your soul. If they believe White Magic exist at all it is New Age aroma therapy listening to Enya while communing with one’s inner bitch and Gray Magick is just a self-deluded dark sorcerer whom demons have led astray.

On the other hand are those who claim Magick is a neutral force. Let’s call this the Technical View. These notions of black vs. white vs. gray are all social constructs relative to historical time and culture. Whether they understand this phenomenon of ‘magick’ to be purely psychological or an aspect of the energetic structure of the Universe they believe that the resultant karma or cosmic blow-back one receives for a magical act is caused by an attachment to the value judgments the operator places on that act alone. If there are no such judgments, then there is no karma regardless of the nature or effect of the action.

Personally, I do not agree with either view. I would consider myself Gray, by way of disclosure.

The Popular View is based on misinformation. Even in the Middle Ages there are orthodox Christian legends of saints who compelled demons to build bridges to aid the community. They were certainly not ‘evil.’ Conversely, Evangelical Christians who gather to pray for the conversion of some sinner and their collective force ruins his life so he turns to Jesus are working Black Magic.

The Technical View to me seems like making the statement, true in itself, that ‘nerves are instruments for transmitting sensation.’ The catch is that word ‘sensation.’ It appears neutral but can mean either pleasure or pain. Along the same lines, all technology is certainly value-neutral but this is only in the abstract. Its use, or manifestation, in the human sphere can be damaging or ennobling.

What does everyone else think?

[PeacockAngel]

I'm more of the psychological school. To call magick black or white is silly, you're only limiting yourself. Magick comes from you, whether it's purely psychological or not. You use it to affect the world around you. The thing is your magick is directly tied to you. When you curse someone, the curse alone won't do anything to them. It'll make you feel better or make you act, but the ritual itself won't affect them.

There are differentiations I accept: lesser and greater magick. Every intentional act, like me typing this post, is an act of causing change in conformity with will. But that is magick we all do (though the key is recognizing it), it is LM. Things like ritual being GM.

[Ramscha]

For my personal work black and white are senceless limitations, I agree on that with the poster above.
However, wehn discussing with others those limitations might have another value for my discussion partner, so I have to consider them as a valued point of view if I want to keep a productive discussion and don't want to quarrel about details. Of course you can discuss about them as own topic and about their use but it isn´t really helpful if you say "white-black ist shit because I think this....". Then you will stay alone in a corner whereas the others learn from each other and make progress.

The technical view as asurendra calls it, of course has its advantages and so on. But it is quite sterile and unliving if I limit everything to myself. Of course it depends on the persons taste, but where are then all the flashy unicorns and talking ravens? Anyway, all this white-black-gray stuff is rather colourless.
I like the chaotic apporach going taking the chaos star as model. Each arrow of the star symbolizes an approximate direction and is associated with a colour (Death magick for example is black, battle magick red and pure magick octarine). Much more colourfull and lively [yay]

Just my 2 cents on the topic

Ramscha

[RoseRed]

This is the first time I've heard Gray Magick defined in that way but it makes sense.

I don't know. I don't think magic comes from within us. I think the ability to use it, interact with it and wield it comes from within. It may be a part of us, it flows through us but it's so much bigger than any single individual could contain.

The thing is your magick is directly tied to you. When you curse someone, the curse alone won't do anything to them. It'll make you feel better or make you act, but the ritual itself won't affect them.

There are methods that can be used to untie to you.

And, yeah - curses actually do work. Cursing, hexing - whatever level of malevolence someone wants to throw - work. It's so much more than a psychological 'I did a ritual and now I feel better even though nothing actually happened' kind of thing.

I do agree that the ritual itself won't actually affect anyone. It's what's done within the confines of that ritual that interacts with the energetic strands of the 'universe'. Magic is manipulation of that. Stepping into the Current - anything is possible although not everything is probable. Most of it depends on the ability and skill level of the person doing these things.

Back to colors... just some things I've come across through the years...

White - all fluffy and 'for your own good'
Black - oohhh, ahhhh - evil and 'for my own good' or 'you're bad'
Green - I like to play with plants
Blue - 'I'm a Sea Witch' or 'All I do is healing work'
Gray - 'I do what I want and mix up the white and black depending on my mood'

[PeacockAngel]

This is the first time I've heard Gray Magick defined in that way but it makes sense.

I don't know. I don't think magic comes from within us. I think the ability to use it, interact with it and wield it comes from within. It may be a part of us, it flows through us but it's so much bigger than any single individual could contain.

The thing is your magick is directly tied to you. When you curse someone, the curse alone won't do anything to them. It'll make you feel better or make you act, but the ritual itself won't affect them.

There are methods that can be used to untie to you.

And, yeah - curses actually do work. Cursing, hexing - whatever level of malevolence someone wants to throw - work. It's so much more than a psychological 'I did a ritual and now I feel better even though nothing actually happened' kind of thing.

I do agree that the ritual itself won't actually affect anyone. It's what's done within the confines of that ritual that interacts with the energetic strands of the 'universe'. Magic is manipulation of that. Stepping into the Current - anything is possible although not everything is probable. Most of it depends on the ability and skill level of the person doing these things.

Back to colors... just some things I've come across through the years...

White - all fluffy and 'for your own good'
Black - oohhh, ahhhh - evil and 'for my own good' or 'you're bad'
Green - I like to play with plants
Blue - 'I'm a Sea Witch' or 'All I do is healing work'
Gray - 'I do what I want and mix up the white and black depending on my mood'

I have no qualms with that being your faith, but I'd dare you to support it

In all seriousness though magick comes down the same as prayer: power of the mind. It's been studied and thought about and hopefully people like myself can continue bringing occultism into a more realistic light and benefit from it.

[RoseRed]

Magic is manipulating the world around you. Prayer is asking for a higher power to do it for you.

[PeacockAngel]

Magic is manipulating the world around you. Prayer is asking for a higher power to do it for you.

Very true, which is why magick tends to be more successful.

[RoseRed]

[thumbup]

[ShubNiggurath]

perhaps it comes down to the positivismdebate from the 70th.

the world consists for a part of this 'thing' we call magick. everything the world consists of - just is - neither good or bad.
Good or bad// white or black - are subjective, normative categories - they are no part of the objective world. normative categories belong to the human mind's sphere. and therefore develop with our culturation and socialization. of course - our actions influence the objective world (at least - we hope they do). but this doesn't change the initial situation (first there was the universe - then humans - belch of the universe)

[varmoth]

Interesting discussion, and I am happy to see that there is no firm consensus and everyone can still get along.

As for myself, the only thing I know for sure is that we (humanity) don't really know shit. It seems like every few years or so we discover that something we knew for sure actually wasn't. I want to quote a line from the first Men In Black movie here but cannot quite remember it, something like people used to know the earth was flat... yesterday you knew we were alone in the universe...imagine what you will know tomorrow.

Anyway, if I had to categorize myself I fit more into the technical camp, though this hasn't always been true and is subject to change without notice. At the moment, I see magic as consciousness working directly on the universe bypassing the body as its usual tool, but I also think of the universe as a product of consciousness as perceived by our limited physical senses. That is to say, the universe is a product of consciousness, consciousness is not a product of the universe. I have been reading Peter Carroll and Christopher Hyatt's works lately - The Apophenion (Caroll) is very much to my liking. I'll stop that line of thought there before I go on an off topic rant.

At any rate, I am more than willing to pick up any set of beliefs for a period of time as it suits me, so long as they are useful and the magic works.

[Asurendra]

Hello Varmoth,

I agree with you that all is Consciousness. There are some trends within Western sciences that are moving in that direction, such as Biocentrism.

I also think it is true that magic is the interaction of an individual consciousness with the universe but that abstract and neutral statement does not remain in such a pristine state when applied to the realm of human action. As I said about all technology, the electronic tracking that can help find grandpa with Alzheimer's can also be the foundation of a totalitarian state. We live in a state of being where actions have consequences. Magick is not exempt from this simply because it is an expression of Will; all out actions are an expression of our Will.

If you were magically adept enough to be able to kill people who are in competition with you for a job, would you do it? Is your rationale that you cannot be convicted in a court of law?

[varmoth]

If you were magically adept enough to be able to kill people who are in competition with you for a job, would you do it? Is your rationale that you cannot be convicted in a court of law?

Who says I'm not? Okay, I'm probably not, though I have never tried. The basis of my moral code is the Non Aggression Principal (NAP as it is commonly called in libertarian circles) which basically means that it is never okay to initiate aggression against another person. It is usually applied to physical aggression, but I apply it to all types: verbal, mental, etcetera. Of course, I'm far from perfect and slip up from time to time.

I don't believe in the threefold law, or even karma as it is commonly thought of, I simply believe it is wrong to initiate an attack. Now, if someone attacks me I am going to swiftly and viciously retaliate, with prejudice.

That all being said if someone is capable of killing people with a thought (I seem to remember reading about someone who could concentrate their hate to the point where another person's heart would stop, and they did it often. I have no idea how true the story was.) I think they could probably do so with impunity and face little in the way of repercussions besides the torment I imagine their conscience would put them through, until they targeted someone more powerful than they.

I could be way off the mark though. Maybe the universe has a way of punishing immorality, but good and evil are so subjective who can ever really know if what they are doing is right or wrong?

[RoseRed]

Who says I'm not?

Statistics. Most people aren't.

Now, if someone attacks me I am going to swiftly and viciously retaliate, with prejudice.

I like you.



I've also come across the word 'Innocent' (as in an innocent person) defined as someone who has not attacked me. (Not me specifically - that was the wording in which I came across it).

[autodydact]

When I first came to the occult I was very white magick. Certainly no listening to Enya or aromatherapy, mostly casting spells to move obstacles I came across in my life. I have since moved to become 'theoretically grey'. That is, I have never attempted a hex or curse because I have never felt the need to, but am not morally adverse to doing so, nor would I discourage those who did indulge in such practices providing their rationale is a sensible one. I tend to think of the 'colours of magick' being only relevant to external work. If your work doesn't directly involve or effect people outside of yourself, then surely it is morally neutral?

[Mysticwizard452]

If I mite offer my own humble thoughts on the matter (my apologies, I have not read all of the replies yet),

I have a simple construct, defining magic by its purpose and effect more than by its methods.

White: Done purely for the purpose of spiritual attainment.

Gray: Self-Serving but not 'evil' or detremintal to anyone else or one's self. Except, perhaps, when Justice does permit or call for giving someone a magical bitch-slap. I admit I have done this but divinations did say I was justified in doing so.

Black: Needlessly Harmful. Involving the exploitation of others. Violating unjustly, the rights of others to be governed by their own free-will.

And yes these are moral constructs, Arbitrary in definition. However, I would argue that morality and contructs such as these are needed, if for no other reason, than to be the glue that holds civilization together. Morality, however arbitraty, is that which keeps us from killing our neighbors, stealing their shit, raping their wives, ect. Without the art of self restraint, there is no civilzation. This is no less true for magicians.

Today we could likely get away with a great number of harmful, destructive behaviors because the majority of people are magically ignorant with no idea of how to defend themselves. But what if everyone DID have magical knowledge to some degree? Suddenly things take a different look, don't they? And WE would all have to worry about the dangers of potentially unscrupulous magicians. As much as morality may constrain us at times, it is also our protector. Bare that in mind before you spit on the idea of being limited by something.

[Ramscha]

Morality, however arbitraty, is that which keeps us from killing our neighbors, stealing their shit, raping their wives, ect. Without the art of self restraint, there is no civilzation. This is no less true for magicians.

May I discuss about that model?

Moral is a questionable magnitude. I wouldn't always put morality into the role of the civilization keeper. I know this argument too well when it comes to discussions about religious believes. I guess the clichè (without any mean intention) would be a christian which puts god as highest instance and who gave his moral standards as borders and glue of civilization to legitimate the absolutliness of his believe (no offense against any christians, it is only an anecdote from my own life). It is a variable and one moral would necessarily surpress oppinions about other ways of moral thinking (and most likely believe, as faith most likely brings along its own moral codex).

With the age of humanism and the following age of enlightment/reason we have a good example of what other magnitude could come in handy when it comes to the question of the civilizational glue: Reason.

The argument that without moral chaos would rise and everybody would start to kill each other without thinking is ridicolous in that way, that a "normal" (or mentally stable) human beeing wouldn't have a reason to start rampaging at any moment only because the moral rules where out of existence. Gain and efficiancy are a big factor when it comes to life. A hunter wouldn't start to shoot all deers in the woods only because he is hungry. That would kill himself as he has no deer left for the future and would be very ineffective.

However, reason is inefficiant in another way as the human mind does not always operate on reasonable thinking. That is the big weakness of reason as civilizational glue. Also it is kind of subjective as the grades of reason in which people measure their actions will differ, same as it is the case when it comes to morality. Reason is also taken out of action when we start a magical operation, as some of you might have experienced during their practice.

Therefore, I won't say "this is better than that, because....". The sole purpose was to bring in another aspect to think about as substituent or equal values factor. But an omnipotent restrictian factor for society and civilization is in my eyes much to simple of a thought.

Ramscha

[RoseRed]

Certainly no listening to Enya or aromatherapy,

And what's wrong with that?

Black: Needlessly Harmful. Involving the exploitation of others. Violating unjustly, the rights of others to be governed by their own free-will.

Once again - what's wrong with that? Most magical acts violate someones free will. Besides - who's to judge what is 'needlessly' harmful?

And yes these are moral constructs, Arbitrary in definition. However, I would argue that morality and contructs such as these are needed, if for no other reason, than to be the glue that holds civilization together. Morality, however arbitraty, is that which keeps us from killing our neighbors, stealing their shit, raping their wives, ect. Without the art of self restraint, there is no civilzation. This is no less true for magicians.

It takes more than moral constructs - it also takes a prison system. You know - consequences. The only reason some people are still breathing is simply because I don't want to go to prison.

And WE would all have to worry about the dangers of potentially unscrupulous magicians.

You don't?

[sonko]

It is not uncommon for there to be discussions on the Forum about the ethical use of magick and cosmic blow-back for our choices. I thought it might be informative to create a thread on which to focus on this subject. So, for whatever it may be worth, I’ll offer some of my opinions on the subjects of Black Magic, White Magic and Gray Magick.

There are some who come to the Forum with their definitions of these categories completely molded by popular culture or religion. As shorthand, let’s call this the Popular View. To ‘summon demons’ is Black Magic, cut and dry. You send them to attack the guy who annoys you in gym class then they eat your soul. If they believe White Magic exist at all it is New Age aroma therapy listening to Enya while communing with one’s inner bitch and Gray Magick is just a self-deluded dark sorcerer whom demons have led astray.

On the other hand are those who claim Magick is a neutral force. Let’s call this the Technical View. These notions of black vs. white vs. gray are all social constructs relative to historical time and culture. Whether they understand this phenomenon of ‘magick’ to be purely psychological or an aspect of the energetic structure of the Universe they believe that the resultant karma or cosmic blow-back one receives for a magical act is caused by an attachment to the value judgments the operator places on that act alone. If there are no such judgments, then there is no karma regardless of the nature or effect of the action.

Personally, I do not agree with either view. I would consider myself Gray, by way of disclosure.

The Popular View is based on misinformation. Even in the Middle Ages there are orthodox Christian legends of saints who compelled demons to build bridges to aid the community. They were certainly not ‘evil.’ Conversely, Evangelical Christians who gather to pray for the conversion of some sinner and their collective force ruins his life so he turns to Jesus are working Black Magic.

The Technical View to me seems like making the statement, true in itself, that ‘nerves are instruments for transmitting sensation.’ The catch is that word ‘sensation.’ It appears neutral but can mean either pleasure or pain. Along the same lines, all technology is certainly value-neutral but this is only in the abstract. Its use, or manifestation, in the human sphere can be damaging or ennobling.

What does everyone else think?

The ways of defining magic is always inspired by cultural beliefs for instance in my culture, all magic activities are carried out following the footsteps of our ancestors. Because we believe in communicating with spirits on all magical occasions so you find it rear to do magic without involving spirits of which these spirits are not considered to be demons. Each and every family at least has one person who gets possessed by spirits responsible for different activities in that particular family so when it comes to casting spells, each and every situation of which you want to cast a spell must at least be falling under a certain category which is taken care of a certain spirit. So you take to that spirit and be advised on that matter. You see, even though white magic, gray magic exists and other people are considering them but to others, magic is magic and is carried out in unique ways.

[Mahiril]

Hello Varmoth,

I agree with you that all is Consciousness. There are some trends within Western sciences that are moving in that direction, such as Biocentrism.

I also think it is true that magic is the interaction of an individual consciousness with the universe but that abstract and neutral statement does not remain in such a pristine state when applied to the realm of human action. As I said about all technology, the electronic tracking that can help find grandpa with Alzheimer's can also be the foundation of a totalitarian state. We live in a state of being where actions have consequences. Magick is not exempt from this simply because it is an expression of Will; all out actions are an expression of our Will.

If you were magically adept enough to be able to kill people who are in competition with you for a job, would you do it? Is your rationale that you cannot be convicted in a court of law?

First off, I just have to say, this discussion is awesome! Im so happy to see something that has forced me to think anywho.... I like to explain magick as the sun and my body/soul as a magnifying glass. The essence of magick is concentrated through living beings and "fine-tuned" or concentrated and give direction. this is a fresh thought so I haven't fleshed it out too much, but let me know what yall think?

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I at this point tend to run from mislabeled cultural models to the extend that they come from people who've been trained to emote a certain way and panic rather than think.

I personally liked 'Unknown Author's take on it a lot. My take on what he said:
White magic is magic done for your own soul's evolution, black magic is using it to either directly circumvent another person's will, attempt to weaponize it, or in any major way take the power of spirit and treat it the way a 19th century Industrialist treated natural resources - ie. trying to rip as much out of the ground or chop as many trees down for the sake of building/chemistry/monetary materials for the will of the lower will. The later would be deemed to be a bit like a double-atheism, ie. knowing otherwise and still behaving as a reductive materialist and at worst stating that we are better, wiser, smarter, etc. than The All. Not everyone would share that view of course but it makes intuitive sense as a boundary, particularly reverence for the automony of the will of others (which I think Asurendra included).

In that sense though really working with Godforms, pretty much the Golden Dawn gradework, the various Rosicrucian, is pretty safe territory.

My current regard for magic in my own life is this - I think if it as the language of the spirit. I probably wouldn't come off immediately as someone who'd even be interested in this stuff aside from that to me this is another level of knowing how to fix a flat, maintain a fire arm, do you own taxes, fix plumbing, etc. except of course it's on a much more ultimate arc. My journey has really been about trying to figure out what I'm here for and above all how to do it right and get the most bang for the buck in terms of progress in the right direction in this incarnation. I'm not one to think everyone else needs to have that goal necessarily, I'm just compelled for my own reasons. At least for now I tend to stay away from anything that feels like an entertainment or cul-de-sac largely for those reasons although I find out that less and less really is a spiritual cul-de-sac and that more of magic than not is indeed a spiritual development tool.

So to say something for the white magic IMHO it's nowhere near as pathetic, watered down, or straight-jacketed as some people make it in my opinion. Alchemy, Qabalah, western mystery style tarot study - all of this to me is an incredible adventure, one in which I truly get to know myself and one where I look forward to further psychic development, further development of my astral/etheric/causal bodies, and the other leg of it is really getting to something that's bothered me all my life - ie. the vaguery and misuse of the Western religious narrative, to where we have three warring Abrahamic factions off of a book that needs to be handled in a very obtuse way to even take it at utter face value. Part of what I love about WMT is just how many of my questions it answers and how many mysteries of our culture and our story it unravels by bringing in the Egyptian influence, the Greek influence, the Babylonian influence, the Canaanite influence, and telling us what all of this is and in what spirit it was originally intended - generally most often it seems to be pitched toward gnosis and that's really the side of it I love the most.

In application from that perspective I tend, not 100% but for the most part, to be a mystic first and a magician second - ie. its really exploring the spiritual and seeking closer communication with my subconscious and higher self first, second it's magic as a tool to aid in that process and remove planks in my own eye so to speak. Lol, Enya and aroma therapy my ass...

[RoseRed]

That's a really cool post, dude. I can see the thought that went into it.

If I may make a suggestion - study early world history. I know it's not an occult topic and it can be very dry but it does fill in a lot of those gaps. I think you'd be surprised at the range of things that people study that adds to their knowledge base, skill set and practice yet has nothing to do with the occult specifically. One of my dear friends is a history scholar. When I come across something that I don't understand I can expect at least a 2 hour world history lesson (and he's been around the world several times) on how it all fits together, how this civilization influenced this or that.

Those things that you listed aren't pure white once you get into the nitty gritty and past the surface level of their teachings.

As far as the three 'warring factions' of the Abrahamic faiths? So what? What does that have to do with what you believe? I don't know if you'll believe me but that part of your post has more to do with shaking up and losing the hang-ups and baggage from our youth. I've seen it, discussed it, chosen not to discuss it, etc countless times. It's just a part of overcoming what we're taught in childhood. I would be shocked if you didn't come from some sort of Christian home. You may have mentioned it elsewhere but I really don't remember.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

I think the best way I can explain it is this - I'm really looking for the optimal 'what to do with this incarnation'. I've been through some really rough things and its been enough to knock some sense into me with respect to wanting to find the answers as well as I can uncut. I play it safe to some extent but mainly for the reason that it seems Pythagoras/Plato were pagan saints, those in the know who touched base with the Egyptian mysteries seem to edify the notion that the All that Is, core source of humanity, is benevolence itself, that it loves us dearly, and has us here to learn but also to gain as many character traits ourselves that brings us toward being like it.

Some posters on this forum have made excellent points though for evocational magic in terms of the claims that saints have used their dominion over what one might consider sub-lunar entities to be put to work for the greater good. I guess at this point I wouldn't know what to do with such energies or what ends I'd be able to use them toward my own spiritual growth and at this point it seems like pure curiosity for curiosity's sake isn't enough for me to want to do something that could metaphorically blow my fingers off (as far as I understand it's the issue of gaining things by losing them in other places or simply rearranging astral light for zero sum results rather than drawing something new down and adding that has me worried as a consequence - not a hell so much as hell on earth and lots of rather annoying reincarnations).

Like I mentioned I wouldn't judge anyone else's path - I'm really just hoping to find what get's the job done, which is why I tend toward the Great Work related angle.

As far as my own reading - I did read MP Hall's Secret Teachings, I have the Isis Magick book which is enlightening on the Divine Mother angle. I find the Catholic apparitions of Mary, particularly Fatima with all the appearances on the 13th of months, the miracle of the sun, etc. fascinating in the WMT sense rather than the traditional Catholic outlook on the matter. I'm really doing what I can, and have been from the start, to try and sow together the bits and pieces of spiritual evidence that I've been able to find in order to 'get' the core narrative of what's happening. Reading the bible a couple times over, reading the Hermetic texts, as much overview as I could get on the Greek philosophies, all of this lead me rather organically to Hermetic Qabalah just because it seems to be what fits best and also explains so so much of the stuff in Catholicism that has most Protestants and nondenominationals scratching their heads.

I can't say I'm right on anything for sure and I'm sure that many times in the future I'll change my mind on key issues based on incoming evidence - it's happened lots in the last year and a half and I'm sure it'll continue. I figure though on the bright side I'm pretty young, I've got decades to research, and so I'm willing to schlep a bit and keep schleping in hopes of bringing myself continually closer to center in respect to the truth. I do agree with those who'd assert that as imperfect beings with limited intelligence we'll never have full answers just because it's beyond what we have at our fingertips. What I do hope for is the most accurrate bearing and clarity that I can manage. I at least think that I'm on the right track and so far I'm enjoying it.

If you want to chat details either here or via pm I'd love it! I can never learn enough! My tendency though is to think of Judaism and Christianity generally fitting the Kabbalistic/Qabalistic scheme which would have been a shelter for the Egyptian mysteries possibly or at minimum the Babylonian stuff - and I tend to agree that Poke Runyon's Ezra/Cyrus the Great theory (borrowed from the author of Jesus the Canaanite) makes an incredible amount of sense. All of that could just sound cogent but lack historical merit and it'll take me a long time to really sort out just how much Egypt, Babylon, Mithra, etc. is housed where in the bible. I was raised Catholic and what I think I missed out on - whether in a Catholic church or trying out various Protestant/nondenominational ministries was that they simply couldn't shed light on this stuff and they make the bible appear to be this heavy, boring, barbaric book (at least the OT) where the truth seems likely to be far, far more fascinating. What saddens me on the other hand - some people in reading the bible are now panicking about the paganism they see and are throwing more and more books of the bible under the bus that don't comply with their rather material-pessimist take on things, I love that the mysteries go the other way and instead seek to edify both bible and the ethical forms of paganism, all directions as paths up the mountain up to the Hermet's lantern.

As for the fighting of the three Abrahamics - I just see it as misinterpretation/miseducation. Something went wrong in translation and it seems like many modern day Jews, Christians, and Muslims are very forward thinking which I love to see. It'll be fascinating to see if we really do get further clean-up of the mess that's been going off and on for the past 2000 years - I'm thinking in the internet age and with all the data out there we may very much may have it in us to see the likenesses and even admit to the One being the source of all world religions even if all of them creoled to some extent.

[RoseRed]

There is no misinterpretation when it comes to being told to commit genocide and slaughter your enemies - men, women, children and livestock. That's about as clear cut as it gets.

It wasn't until I began studying the occult that I finally realized just how pagan and ritualistic Catholicism really is. It was mind blowing for me.

The best suggestion I can give is to actually read the bible for yourself. I had to read it 3 friggin times before I could wrap my head around the words that were actually written vs what I was taught. When you read a part that just doesn't make sense or fit with what you already know - that's when you stop and pay attention to it. The different churches and demonstrations like to say that "Private interpretation is WRONG! We'll explain it to you." The words are simple. There's no need for interpretation. I prefer the NIV for it's ease of reading vs the KGV (any version). NIV is written in a thought pattern. KGV is written following the wording of other languages which doesn't always translate well and leaves room for confusion. I've read both at the same time and they both say the same damn thing. The difference is the NIV is easier to read.

I don't know how old you are and it really doesn't matter. This is a lifelong path. Allow yourself the time to learn and experience these things. Book knowledge is easy. Applying it through experience is the tricky part. If you stuff too much into your brain you lose so much of what you put in there and then you have to go back to fill in the blanks later.

Magic I discuss publicly. I'm not a private teacher. My views on Christianity are more privately held. Feel free to pm me if you'd like - especially if you do decide to read the bible for yourself. I had to figure it out all on my own and I know how daunting that can be.

It's also difficult to get out of the mindset of 'I am the only true God'. He's a jealous bastard. The bible also clearly states that the occult is bad. Do not trust on yourself - trust in Him. Divination is done by demons and those that can divine are possessed. Really? Why do you think they call the people sheep in need of a Shepard?

[RoseRed]

Just another thought that came to mind.

If the God of all three of these religions really is the same one - at least he's consistent. Jealousy, genocide, vengeance, punishment and eventually forgiveness is you suffer long enough.

[Cybernetic_Jazz]

Rose - I did a double-take when you mentioned reading the bible through myself but then I just realized that I hadn't said anything of it.

I did read the bible through twice, read the epistles probably four or five times through but the OT got a twice over. I don't know how much that would change the nature of the conversation, I'd fully agree that Numbers, Judges, and Joshua were rough going and watching the soap opera drama and Israeli's killing Israeli's in 1st and 2nd Samuel was almost worse in the context of the textual premises of the Torah.

So just to clarify that I'm quite a ways away from still cleaving to a Sunday school education on the contents of the bible. Also for the heck of it since I don't mind sharing - I am in my early/mid 30's.